July 10, 2017 at 12:20 pm
hakim.ali - Monday, July 10, 2017 11:48 AMphonetictalk - Monday, July 10, 2017 10:53 AM...I don't think there's anything different about the personalities of SQL Server people ...
...knowledge is to be shared rather than hoarded. It's a giant pay-it-forward scheme...Thanks for participating. To your point, the inclinations of sharing knowledge and paying it forward are stronger here than in other tech communities. Doesn't this make us just a little bit different?
I don't know necessarily about "different," but I will confirm that the knowledge sharing does seem to be somewhat stronger, in my experience. Having had to look for assistance with an Oracle RDBMS issue some time back, I posted a question on an Oracle forum. Said forum was, I believe, hosted *by* Oracle for people to ask questions.
The response I got from *one* user was less than helpful, boiled down it was "RTFM."
If you've never had the "pleasure" of browsing the Oracle equivalent of BOL, keep strong drink handy, it's not a fun place. Solutions aimed at *nix OSes, which you have to convert yourself to a Windows OS solution (if that's the OS your Oracle instance is on,) solutions that reference other solutions which reference back to the original solution...
Yeah, not fun.
What I've found in general with SQL is that yes, the majority of the SQL admins tend to be more on the "teach a person to fish" side of providing help.
July 10, 2017 at 12:24 pm
Shifting gears back to the subject at hand...
I think one of the reasons for this great community of DBAs and Developers in the SQL Server world is because of the foresight and drive of the founders of the community. Stop and think about things like Local PASS Chapters, SQL Saturdays (sponsored and supported by PASS), the PASS Summit, dozens of other events that PASS is either directly responsible for or has been used as a role model, the MVP program which continues to reward those that go the extra mile to help, great forums like SQL Server Central, Simple-Talk, SQL Team, and many individual companies that make the effort to post great and helpful content for free. Especially on the forums, only the rare exception is shunned for a lack of knowledge and there is little hard ring-knocking by the heavy hitters that always seem to be there.
If you give people the opportunity to both share and shine, they absolutely will.
For anyone reading this, it means that you care enough to frequent an SQL Forum. That means that you're trying to learn, trying to share what you've learned or, most likely doing both and my hat's off to you even if I don't know you.
@Hakim Ali, thanks for starting this thread.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
July 10, 2017 at 12:58 pm
Are we really OCD? Or is it CDO... keeping the letters in their proper alphabetical order 😉
July 10, 2017 at 7:43 pm
And the elephant in the room (or is it a donkey)? I really like that everyone has completely avoided answering your implied question about political leanings. It could easily devolve into a gutter talk flame war, but that sort of you-tube-comment-style bile just doesn't happen around here.
I personally think left vs right is so one dimensional, and both sides of politics (at least in the US and similarly in Australia where I am) are despicable hypocrites. Let's not discuss them in this context. We are here for learning and sharing more about data abstractions and less about emotional influences.
July 10, 2017 at 8:02 pm
jasona.work - Monday, July 10, 2017 12:20 PM...the majority of the SQL admins tend to be more on the "teach a person to fish" side of providing help...
Yes, my observation too.
Hakim Ali
www.sqlzen.com
July 10, 2017 at 8:05 pm
Jeff Moden - Monday, July 10, 2017 12:24 PM@Hakim Ali, thanks for starting this thread.
Glad you like it. Thanks for the feedback.
Hakim Ali
www.sqlzen.com
July 10, 2017 at 8:06 pm
Chris Harshman - Monday, July 10, 2017 12:58 PMAre we really OCD? Or is it CDO... keeping the letters in their proper alphabetical order 😉
😛
Hakim Ali
www.sqlzen.com
July 11, 2017 at 2:12 am
davoscollective - Monday, July 10, 2017 7:43 PMAnd the elephant in the room (or is it a donkey)? I really like that everyone has completely avoided answering your implied question about political leanings. It could easily devolve into a gutter talk flame war, but that sort of you-tube-comment-style bile just doesn't happen around here.I personally think left vs right is so one dimensional, and both sides of politics (at least in the US and similarly in Australia where I am) are despicable hypocrites. Let's not discuss them in this context. We are here for learning and sharing more about data abstractions and less about emotional influences.
I did! 😛
July 11, 2017 at 3:57 am
funbi - Tuesday, July 11, 2017 2:12 AMdavoscollective - Monday, July 10, 2017 7:43 PMAnd the elephant in the room (or is it a donkey)? I really like that everyone has completely avoided answering your implied question about political leanings. It could easily devolve into a gutter talk flame war, but that sort of you-tube-comment-style bile just doesn't happen around here.I personally think left vs right is so one dimensional, and both sides of politics (at least in the US and similarly in Australia where I am) are despicable hypocrites. Let's not discuss them in this context. We are here for learning and sharing more about data abstractions and less about emotional influences.
I did! 😛
Haha yeah, well apart from you 😀
July 11, 2017 at 7:00 am
hakim.ali - Monday, July 10, 2017 11:52 AMbernard black - Monday, July 10, 2017 11:07 AMI'm a member of the Prohibition Party. (yes there is one) . Where does that put me ?I don't want to make this a political discussion... 🙂
You opened that barn door with the contents of the fourth paragraph of your editorial, so let's not pretend.
In the technical world, I don't care about your political leanings, I just want professional, technical, topical communication with peers. Mixing partisan politics with your business today is a good way to lose about 50% of your clients in this environment. It has lead to the downfall of many organizations, the alienation of developers and users, and loss of contracts. Outside politics is the third rail of technical users groups, I've seen it destroy several in my career.
🙁
Assuming all folks in the larger SQL Server community lean a certain way because a vocal subset does is a fallacy. SQL Server is just another important tool in the tool box for many of us, we appreciate the giving community, but aren't caught up in the PASS clique, the Twitter crew or the blogosphere. We have other tools and other communities that we communicate with to get our jobs done. So don't alienate the folks just trying do their jobs or share some information, we have more than enough of that elsewhere.
July 11, 2017 at 7:41 am
phonetictalk - Monday, July 10, 2017 10:53 AMA daring editorial, and I'm going to say something controversial here in response. I don't think there's anything different about the personalities of SQL Server people vs. people in other careers or the general population. We're not special.
I also, and I hesitate to say this, don't like the #SQLFamily hashtag. Calling it a family sounds too much like a clique. It's a nice feeling for people who genuinely feel part of it, but for many others on the periphery who don't feel like that (and I'm sure there are many), it creates an unnecessary feeling of exclusion (though of course not intended that way).
Agreed. I'm extremely grateful for how much the SQL community is willing to share, and mindful that this really sets it apart from other technology groups. I've learnt so much from generous people online giving their expertise for free.
HOWEVER: it is really, really cliquey. Try turning up at conferences and events (even just on the Slack groups) when you're not a member of the inner circle, and see how included you feel. I can see that it's great for those who go way back and know everybody; it looks like an utter blast. But as a normal user who's just trying to get more involved in the SQL community? Good luck with that.
July 11, 2017 at 7:48 am
Beatrix Kiddo - Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:41 AMBut as a normal user who's just trying to get more involved in the SQL community? Good luck with that.
I am a relatively new member in the SQL community and don't get socially / personally involved with the insiders at all. Yet my experience has been that I have generally been welcomed into discussions at conferences etc and to hang out after if I chose to.
Hakim Ali
www.sqlzen.com
July 11, 2017 at 8:07 am
Beatrix Kiddo - Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:41 AMAgreed. I'm extremely grateful for how much the SQL community is willing to share, and mindful that this really sets it apart from other technology groups. I've learnt so much from generous people online giving their expertise for free.HOWEVER: it is really, really cliquey. Try turning up at conferences and events (even just on the Slack groups) when you're not a member of the inner circle, and see how included you feel. I can see that it's great for those who go way back and know everybody; it looks like an utter blast. But as a normal user who's just trying to get more involved in the SQL community? Good luck with that.
I think it's the same regardless of the group. The new person tends to be, not ignored or looked at with suspicion, but not welcomed like an old friend might be the best phrase. Be active on a forum like this, attend local events and get to know some of your local compatriots, then attend the bigger events and introduce yourself to someone who has come to know you elsewhere, and you'll find many of the cliques aren't.
I'm not saying there won't be cliques, but I'd best most of what might be perceived as a clique, aren't.
July 12, 2017 at 2:43 am
chrisn-585491 - Tuesday, July 11, 2017 7:00 AMhakim.ali - Monday, July 10, 2017 11:52 AMbernard black - Monday, July 10, 2017 11:07 AMI'm a member of the Prohibition Party. (yes there is one) . Where does that put me ?I don't want to make this a political discussion... 🙂
You opened that barn door with the contents of the fourth paragraph of your editorial, so let's not pretend.
In the technical world, I don't care about your political leanings, I just want professional, technical, topical communication with peers. Mixing partisan politics with your business today is a good way to lose about 50% of your clients in this environment. It has lead to the downfall of many organizations, the alienation of developers and users, and loss of contracts. Outside politics is the third rail of technical users groups, I've seen it destroy several in my career.
🙁Assuming all folks in the larger SQL Server community lean a certain way because a vocal subset does is a fallacy. SQL Server is just another important tool in the tool box for many of us, we appreciate the giving community, but aren't caught up in the PASS clique, the Twitter crew or the blogosphere. We have other tools and other communities that we communicate with to get our jobs done. So don't alienate the folks just trying do their jobs or share some information, we have more than enough of that elsewhere.
Quite. One of my colleagues leans about as far from me as is possible to so be, politically. He may consider Genghis Khan was alright as a leader, but was perhaps a bit of a soft touch. We obviously understand that about each other and know what subjects to avoid in general or to be circumspect if bringing up touchy topics. However last week, though very busy, I went out of my way to help him get some difficult issues resolved, would do so again in a flash, and he would do the same for me.
July 12, 2017 at 3:30 pm
call.copse - Wednesday, July 12, 2017 2:43 AMQuite. One of my colleagues leans about as far from me as is possible to so be, politically. He may consider Genghis Khan was alright as a leader, but was perhaps a bit of a soft touch. We obviously understand that about each other and know what subjects to avoid in general or to be circumspect if bringing up touchy topics. However last week, though very busy, I went out of my way to help him get some difficult issues resolved, would do so again in a flash, and he would do the same for me.
Absolutely. At the workplace, getting work done comes first second and third. Personal political inclinations should not have any impact whatsoever on work output or professional courtesies towards coworkers. I never implied otherwise. I merely observed that more members of the database community tend to lean one way. I wasn't advocating for this, or against it. Just simply stating what I saw. I am not looking to influence anybody's political views or imply that they have to be a certain way in order to fit in. Quite the contrary: I see much demographic diversity working smoothly together in this group.
Hakim Ali
www.sqlzen.com
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