October 22, 2010 at 2:45 pm
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
[rant]I'm getting sick and tired of having to deal with people trying to use SSIS without taking the time to learn how to use it first!!!!!!!!
[/rant]
I think I need to read some of Celko's responses so I can do a better job of expressing myself when I answer some of the questions.
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
October 22, 2010 at 3:20 pm
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
[rant]I'm getting sick and tired of having to deal with people trying to use SSIS without taking the time to learn how to use it first!!!!!!!!
[/rant]
I think I need to read some of Celko's responses so I can do a better job of expressing myself when I answer some of the questions.
LOL!
So, you want to come across as arrogant, obnoxious, and condescending in the shortest possible number of words? Well, you've picked an excellent mentor for that!:w00t:
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
October 22, 2010 at 3:37 pm
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
[rant]I'm getting sick and tired of having to deal with people trying to use SSIS without taking the time to learn how to use it first!!!!!!!!
[/rant]
I think I need to read some of Celko's responses so I can do a better job of expressing myself when I answer some of the questions.
Here, Alvin... does this help?
http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/FindPost1009527.aspx
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
October 22, 2010 at 3:43 pm
Craig Farrell (10/22/2010)
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
[rant]I'm getting sick and tired of having to deal with people trying to use SSIS without taking the time to learn how to use it first!!!!!!!!
[/rant]
I think I need to read some of Celko's responses so I can do a better job of expressing myself when I answer some of the questions.
Here, Alvin... does this help?
kkkkkkkkkkkkkk
How much you want to bet the OP isgoing to come back with another question?????????????
For best practices on asking questions, please read the following article: Forum Etiquette: How to post data/code on a forum to get the best help[/url]
October 22, 2010 at 4:01 pm
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
Craig Farrell (10/22/2010)
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
[rant]I'm getting sick and tired of having to deal with people trying to use SSIS without taking the time to learn how to use it first!!!!!!!!
[/rant]
I think I need to read some of Celko's responses so I can do a better job of expressing myself when I answer some of the questions.
Here, Alvin... does this help?
How much you want to bet the OP isgoing to come back with another question?????????????
kkkkkkkkkkkkkk
Probably. k? kk. kkk? No, kk. k? DAmmit, kk. kkk, kk? GYEAH! FINE! kkk. k!
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
For better assistance in answering your questions[/url] | Forum Netiquette
For index/tuning help, follow these directions.[/url] |Tally Tables[/url]
Twitter: @AnyWayDBA
October 22, 2010 at 6:05 pm
GilaMonster (10/22/2010)
I love this reply from one of the regulars over at SQLTeamHave a look at your post and then think about if we can understand what you want...
It's an old classic reply, appeared on bitnet lists long before we had a wwweb (first time I saw it was on a functional programming list in response to an incomprehensible query about object orientation, I can't remember who replied - I seem to remember it being Simon Peyton-Jones but that must be wrong, I'm sure it wasn't because he was too damn nice to write that).
Tom
October 22, 2010 at 6:16 pm
WayneS (10/22/2010)
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
I think I need to read some of Celko's responses so I can do a better job of expressing myself when I answer some of the questions.LOL!
So, you want to come across as arrogant, obnoxious, and condescending in the shortest possible number of words? Well, you've picked an excellent mentor for that!:w00t:
Rubbish. He's second rate at it - even I can come across more arrogantly obnoxious and condescending in far fewer words if I try. And I'm far (very far indeed) from the only regular contributor to SQLServerCentral who can do that. It's just that Celko is so boringly obvious about it that he makes you think he's uniquely good at it.
Tom
October 22, 2010 at 6:32 pm
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
[rant]I'm getting sick and tired of having to deal with people trying to use SSIS without taking the time to learn how to use it first!!!!!!!!
[/rant]
Here's a somewhat inebriated response to your rant:-
If SSIS is such a crap product that capable people can't learn to use it by playing at the UI without reading the documentation, then it's a waste of space. And if it isn't, why should people capable of learning spend time on learning how to use it before they try it? (After all, a decade ago precisely that consideration was what was so wonderful about SQL Server 2000 compared to, for example, DB2 - and why I threw DB2 out of my shop.)
My conclusion: either you are over-fond of a crap product, or you are misinterpreting the problems that you see (treating lack of the ability to learn/understand as laziness, which is not what it is - it's lack of ability).
Probably if I were sober I wouldn't say that; but I'd still believe it. And that it's evey manager's and senior dba's responsibility to try to educate people so as to elimninate that lack of ability.
Tom
October 23, 2010 at 3:32 am
Personally I learnt SSIS with almost no reference to the docs (other than some of the SSIS expression 'language' and some error handling practices)
I did, however, play around with it until I was comfortable and knew what the various tasks were for before I tried doing something complex. I suspect what's happening is that people are starting straight with the complex stuff.
'I'll write a package that imports 26 text files of different structures does complex stuff and then writes into 5 databases and I'll have it done tomorrow'
It's like anything, either you need to play around or hit the docs before doing something complex, or allow far more time than necessary for investigation and rework
We wouldn't suggest someone writes complex procs without knowing what SELECT does. We wouldn't say write an enterprise application without knowing the first thing about C#/VB.net/other front end language of choice. Same thing with SSIS.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 23, 2010 at 4:49 am
The key to learning SSIS, at least for me, was to learn to trust the pipeline. As soon as you focus your efforts around keeping the data in the pipeline, avoid any & all tendencies towards scripting, it actually gets easy pretty quick.
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt
Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning
October 23, 2010 at 5:38 am
Tom.Thomson (10/22/2010)
WayneS (10/22/2010)
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
I think I need to read some of Celko's responses so I can do a better job of expressing myself when I answer some of the questions.LOL!
So, you want to come across as arrogant, obnoxious, and condescending in the shortest possible number of words? Well, you've picked an excellent mentor for that!:w00t:
Rubbish. He's second rate at it - even I can come across more arrogantly obnoxious and condescending in far fewer words if I try. And I'm far (very far indeed) from the only regular contributor to SQLServerCentral who can do that. It's just that Celko is so boringly obvious about it that he makes you think he's uniquely good at it.
After thinking about Celko's responses, you're right. Maybe I should have said "So, you want to come across as arrogant, obnoxious and condescending in a verbose way?" He's definitely not short of words when he does it!
Wayne
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server 2008
Author - SQL Server T-SQL Recipes
October 23, 2010 at 5:43 am
With regards to SSIS, I always advise a team of programmers to learn it, just like they would learn any other programing engine.
It is very powerful, but there can be dozens of things that can kill your app. and then it's a struggle to figure out what the xyz is going wrong.
I'm not comfortable with it because it fails where DTS used to just do it.
copy a table from a to b, including the data can cause SSIS to fail because the generated flow doesn't set the null settings in the source object.
Seems more like a product of the dark side, to much knobs and bolts and obscure messages.
:w00t:
Johan
Learn to play, play to learn !
Dont drive faster than your guardian angel can fly ...
but keeping both feet on the ground wont get you anywhere :w00t:
- How to post Performance Problems
- How to post data/code to get the best help[/url]
- How to prevent a sore throat after hours of presenting ppt
press F1 for solution, press shift+F1 for urgent solution 😀
Need a bit of Powershell? How about this
Who am I ? Sometimes this is me but most of the time this is me
October 23, 2010 at 7:57 am
Tom.Thomson (10/22/2010)
Alvin Ramard (10/22/2010)
[rant]I'm getting sick and tired of having to deal with people trying to use SSIS without taking the time to learn how to use it first!!!!!!!!
[/rant]
Here's a somewhat inebriated response to your rant:-
If SSIS is such a crap product that capable people can't learn to use it by playing at the UI without reading the documentation, then it's a waste of space. And if it isn't, why should people capable of learning spend time on learning how to use it before they try it? (After all, a decade ago precisely that consideration was what was so wonderful about SQL Server 2000 compared to, for example, DB2 - and why I threw DB2 out of my shop.)
My conclusion: either you are over-fond of a crap product, or you are misinterpreting the problems that you see (treating lack of the ability to learn/understand as laziness, which is not what it is - it's lack of ability).
Probably if I were sober I wouldn't say that; but I'd still believe it. And that it's evey manager's and senior dba's responsibility to try to educate people so as to elimninate that lack of ability.
I disagree. I don't necessarily think it is as much a lack of ability to learn as never having learned how to research something for yourself. I learned SSIS both by playing around with the interface and by reading a book, but the biggest learning moments came when I found myself thinking "How do I do that?" and went on line or back to my book or to the bookstore and searched until I found the answer. Heck, that's how I taught myself SQL Server, CLR, VB, ASPs, etc...
Once you learn how to research or more fundamentally, learn how to learn you're at least armed with the tools that eliminate 90% of the sloppy questions Alvin is annoyed with 90% of the time. And even then, you've at least learned to formulate your question in an understandable manner. I don't think it is a lack of ability so much as a lack of adequate basic preparation.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
October 23, 2010 at 8:09 am
Grant Fritchey (10/23/2010)
The key to learning SSIS, at least for me, was to learn to trust the pipeline. As soon as you focus your efforts around keeping the data in the pipeline, avoid any & all tendencies towards scripting, it actually gets easy pretty quick.
I've noticed an unfortunate tendency for people trying to explain how to perform different tasks in SSIS on other sites to jump right to scripting when they don't need to. For example, I needed to use variables to find files named in a particular pattern, like "abc" + currentdate + "_" + random numbers + ".xml" What I found on-line was mostly people showing how to do scripting in SSIS as opposed to DTS, but I didn't want to jump right into scripting, it seemed too basic not to be possible in SSIS.
Sure enough, I played around with variables and the For Each control and it works just fine without any scripting at all.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
October 23, 2010 at 8:14 am
ALZDBA (10/23/2010)
With regards to SSIS, I always advise a team of programmers to learn it, just like they would learn any other programing engine.It is very powerful, but there can be dozens of things that can kill your app. and then it's a struggle to figure out what the xyz is going wrong.
I'm not comfortable with it because it fails where DTS used to just do it.
copy a table from a to b, including the data can cause SSIS to fail because the generated flow doesn't set the null settings in the source object.
Seems more like a product of the dark side, to much knobs and bolts and obscure messages.
:w00t:
I agree about the obscure messages. Microsoft really needs to work on those or just throw up a message that says "Oh Noez! Something Happened!" because it would save me a lot of time trying to figure out what the hell they mean.
The rest of it though? Once I started working with it, it seems really easy. I especially like that if I use the wizards for a process, I can open the resulting package and see how it did it. I learned some good things about performing backups that way.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
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