October 2, 2012 at 11:43 am
patrickmcginnis59 (10/2/2012)
Grant Fritchey (10/2/2012)
patrickmcginnis59 (10/2/2012)
Grant Fritchey (9/21/2012)
Lowell (9/21/2012)
ok, I have my own my knee jerk reactions for the things to review.Grant wanted to avoid putting the answers on the forum, but i'd kind of like to see how i would stack up agaisnt other's ideas.
should i post my ideas out here or keep them to myself?
Keep 'em to yourself. And I'm with Gail. Memory is not the first place I'd go either. But see, it's a fun, or extremely painful, question. And there's no way you can really study for it.
Why can't you just google "why is sql server running so slow" or something along those lines. I'm already finding reading material, so why can't folks just study that sort of stuff?
Because you can't memorize the answer. You could read three or four of those articles and maybe two of out of three say that you always need to defrag the index to speed up the server. I'll then say "OK, the index is defragmented. Things are still slow, what else could it be?"
So whats the downside of lowell posting his ideas then? Thats what I'm inquiring, whats the difference between lowells ideas getting posted (and read) versus the rest of the info out there?
I'm inquiring why you guys don't post that stuff when its pretty much available anyways. Just curious on this point as I know you guys have made it a point. Is it to protect weak interviewers that you know of?
Not to protect weak interviewers.
There's a big difference, in my perception, between someone doing research on the subject of slow queries, in preparation for an interview, and in someone memorizing interview questions and answers they found on a forum.
If, for example, I post a series of interview Q&As:
Q: What's the difference between clustered and non-clustered indeces?
A: One starts with "non-" and the other doesn't.
Q: How many different types of people are there?
A: 10, those who know binary, and those who don't.
Q: What query always returns 0 rows, no matter what database you run it in?
A: Select * from Users where Clue > 0.
And so on, but with real questions. Someone with no real knowledge of SQL Server could memorize those, and spit them out rotely. A manager who needs a DBA because nobody in his company knows SQL Server, can't necessarily tell if the answers are good or not.
So, I post a list. A manager reads it, memorizes it in the hopes it will help deliver the interview. A person masquerading as a DBA memorizes the same list, gets asked the questions by that poor manager, gets the job, bungles it horribly because of gross ignorance, and leaves that manager and company with a mess they were diligently trying to avoid.
I've run into the request for interview questions dozens of times, at least. The vast majority of cases are people who took a class on databases, memorized enough to pass their exams, and are now looking for work. They don't know the subject very well, if it all, but they want to be hired to do the work. If I help them fake their way through an interview, I'm doing a disservice to whomever ends up hiring them.
The few cases where it's a manager (or similar) who has the unenviable task of interviewing prospective DBAs, but who doesn't know enough to sort wheat from chaff, I'm always willing to help, but on a private channel, not an open forum.
It's the same reason I won't answer questions that look like interview/homework/exam questions. A lot of the time, those are very obvious. I'll help the person figure out what they need to study in order to understand the material, but I won't spoon-feed the answers.
It's about ethics.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
October 2, 2012 at 12:05 pm
Not to protect weak interviewers.
...
So, I post a list. A manager reads it, memorizes it in the hopes it will help deliver the interview. A person masquerading as a DBA memorizes the same list, gets asked the questions by that poor manager, gets the job, bungles it horribly because of gross ignorance, and leaves that manager and company with a mess they were diligently trying to avoid.
...
The few cases where it's a manager (or similar) who has the unenviable task of interviewing prospective DBAs, but who doesn't know enough to sort wheat from chaff, I'm always willing to help, but on a private channel, not an open forum.
So if your hypothetical manager knows nothing, but alternatively is not a weak interviewer to be protected, why is he doing the interview?
I think its fine that you secretly feed him a specific set of questions and answers that aren't duplicated publically, but I'm asking why Lowell is advised not to post a list of what to check for a slow server, especially since this seems to be a fairly common situation thats been discussed everywhere.
October 2, 2012 at 12:35 pm
I think we all need to get up on stage and kick off ObamaRomney. We can have our own debate that will doubtless be more exciting... wow....
😀
This is getting fun to read... HAHAHAHAHA.....
I'm learning a lot....
You guys are great... Oh.. and Gals... (No offence Gila Monster).
October 2, 2012 at 1:06 pm
patrickmcginnis59 (10/2/2012)
Not to protect weak interviewers.
...
So, I post a list. A manager reads it, memorizes it in the hopes it will help deliver the interview. A person masquerading as a DBA memorizes the same list, gets asked the questions by that poor manager, gets the job, bungles it horribly because of gross ignorance, and leaves that manager and company with a mess they were diligently trying to avoid.
...
The few cases where it's a manager (or similar) who has the unenviable task of interviewing prospective DBAs, but who doesn't know enough to sort wheat from chaff, I'm always willing to help, but on a private channel, not an open forum.
So if your hypothetical manager knows nothing, but alternatively is not a weak interviewer to be protected, why is he doing the interview?
I think its fine that you secretly feed him a specific set of questions and answers that aren't duplicated publically, but I'm asking why Lowell is advised not to post a list of what to check for a slow server, especially since this seems to be a fairly common situation thats been discussed everywhere.
If by "weak interviewer" you simply mean "someone who has to interview a DBA, but doesn't himself know DBA data well enough to judge good/bad", then, yes, it is at least partially to protect such. I was reading "weak interviewer" more as "doesn't know how to interview". Same words, different take on them.
On the question about Lowell, I can't speak to that. Avoiding answering that question here might help prevent search-engine bots from connecting that list to searches about interviews, but I seriously doubt that attempt would be really effective. Not my point, so I'm really guessing on that.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
October 2, 2012 at 1:08 pm
GSQUARED, I"m gonna shoot you a PM....
October 3, 2012 at 9:06 am
Grant Fritchey (8/27/2012)
You might want to hire a consultant to do the interview for you. I know several people that are regularly doing interviews for employers that don't have the internal resources to get that interview done properly.By the way, I do have a few, very basic, questions posted online[/url]. You'd have to know the answers to these to get in the door. They're so basic, I don't mind sharing. The fun stuff in an interview are after these.
To my way of thinking, Grant's right on target. Hire someone who is qualified to perform a competent interview, and have a few questions of your own.
Depending upon the type of DBA job you have open, there should be some fundamental questions about the use of SQL Server tools to implement everyday actions that occur on a SQL Server. There should be some questions about problem solving: "What would you do if such-and-such happened? Describe one or more initial responses to such-and-such a problem." And there should be some questions about best practices. I'd leave the last set of questions open ended. For instance, "Tell me about some best practices that are applicable to SQL Server. How and why would you implement them? Why is it important to adhere to best practices?"
October 3, 2012 at 9:15 am
Lee Crain (10/3/2012)
Grant Fritchey (8/27/2012)
You might want to hire a consultant to do the interview for you. I know several people that are regularly doing interviews for employers that don't have the internal resources to get that interview done properly.By the way, I do have a few, very basic, questions posted online[/url]. You'd have to know the answers to these to get in the door. They're so basic, I don't mind sharing. The fun stuff in an interview are after these.
To my way of thinking, Grant's right on target. Hire someone who is qualified to perform a competent interview, and have a few questions of your own.
Depending upon the type of DBA job you have open, there should be some fundamental questions about the use of SQL Server tools to implement everyday actions that occur on a SQL Server. There should be some questions about problem solving: "What would you do if such-and-such happened? Describe one or more initial responses to such-and-such a problem." And there should be some questions about best practices. I'd leave the last set of questions open ended. For instance, "Tell me about some best practices that are applicable to SQL Server. How and why would you implement them? Why is it important to adhere to best practices?"
The problem I see in "pay someone to do the tech screening for you" is that it's a chicken/egg situation to a certain extent. How can you tell if the prospective interviewer is qualified to do the interview for you?
You might, if you're in the right geography, be able to get someone whom you can get reliable reputation data about. Maybe LinkedIn, or perhaps this site, can lead you to someone who isn't looking for work, but who you can be reasonably certain could do an interview for you. But that's kind of limited.
Sure, Grant could do a heck of an interview for you. If you happen to be geographically proximate, and he has time (RedGate has him travel a bunch), and ... and ... and ... There are a lot of limitations on that.
Same for me. I could certainly do a decent tech screening of a DBA. If you're in my area, and I have time and availability, and so on.
Same for a bunch of others. Gail Shaw, Jeff Moden, Steve Jones, maybe a dozen others on this site. But all with major "ifs" attached.
Beyond those, how do you pick a contractor for doing the interview, if you can't tell whether the contractor is any good or not?
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
October 3, 2012 at 9:29 am
GSquared,
All good questions.
If I knew I was not qualified to perform the interview myself, I would start by writing as good a job description as I was able. Then, I would look to someone I knew to be a credible source for a recommendation of someone qualified to perform the interview.
It's not a perfect solution but in that situation, what else would be a good solution? You have to start somewhere. And, like most things in life, outcomes are not guaranteed.
One more thing: I would sit in on the technical interviews to observe the candidate's demeanor when answering questions. Observations of body language can often reveal things about a person's command of a subject.
October 3, 2012 at 2:47 pm
GSquared (10/2/2012)
And so on, but with real questions. Someone with no real knowledge of SQL Server could memorize those, and spit them out rotely.It's about ethics.
I've seen interview candidates who appear to have truly excellent knowledge... but when you ask "Why?" you get nothing, when you ask "when did you use that", you get nonsense, and when you ask about many popular myths, they repeat the myth as if it were read. They indeed appear to have memorized lists of trivia, but don't have the knowledge or experience to apply it.
I'm with most of the others; when hiring in a field no-one in the company is a trusted expert in, find a trusted expert to do the interviewing for you. Also interview the candidates that pass the trusted expert yourself, but more for fit than job-specific skills.
Note that advanced expert answers can often sound wrong to someone who isn't an expert... and incorrect answers can often sound right to that same person.
October 3, 2012 at 3:22 pm
Lee Crain (10/3/2012)
GSquared,One more thing: I would sit in on the technical interviews to observe the candidate's demeanor when answering questions. Observations of body language can often reveal things about a person's command of a subject.
Yes, yes, yes. This is just as important as the answers to the questions. How do they answer the questions? Are they inquisitive or inflexible? Do they sound like they can take control but still follow company policy? Like the OP said, they had one interviewee that admitted to doing "shady" things - the fit did not feel right. Do not hire someone that doesn't feel right even if they have the technical know-how.
Does the interviewee ask good questions back about your environment? When you set up an open ended questions like "User says server is slow", do they ask you "do you have monitoring software set up on your systems so I can check a baseline vs the current performance" or "is there someone in the networking team that I can coordinate with?" Those are types of people that are looking big picture. I'd much prefer someone who is thoughtful about their answer and asks for more information even if the answer isn't the exact one that I was looking for. I want someone who is also willing to admit their limitations, but knows how to get the information. I always ask what resources they like to use, I want to hear something that shows that they are involved in furthering their knowledge.
MWise
October 3, 2012 at 3:49 pm
CptCrusty1 (8/24/2012)
Hi dudes and dudettes...The boss and I are conviced that we need a dba since the 3rd party firm providing dba services isn't doing the best job. I know lots about SQL development; however, I know very very little about being a dba.
We received a resume from a person indicating many years exp with 2000/2005/2008 as a DBA; however, outside tricky SQL Questions, I'm not sure where to go from there.
I'm looking for:
--Generic DBA type things.
--Stuff that a mid-lvl dba should know.
--Advanced stuff that is rather obscure.
If you are kind enough to respond, please preface the answer with the level of difficulty you feel it has... . Oh... and the answer too.
When hiring the person, I'd like to make an informed decision. Thanks all... I really appreciate it.
Crusty.
As others have already mentioned, you may want to consider hiring a consultant to run the interview. Or, you might check into recruitment firms in your area and see if any of them do technical screening for candidates.
These services will cost you, but they're a lot cheaper than losing your data 😉
October 3, 2012 at 4:30 pm
cphite (10/3/2012)
Or, you might check into recruitment firms in your area and see if any of them do technical screening for candidates.
Candidates who have poor or surface/rote memorization knowledge? Some of them came from recruitment firms.
October 3, 2012 at 7:49 pm
Lee Crain (10/3/2012)
Observations of body language can often reveal things about a person's command of a subject.
I've noticed that, as well. A bloody postal uniform and shotgun at the ready is a dead giveaway that the fit probably isn't right.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 3, 2012 at 8:27 pm
Nadrek (10/3/2012)
cphite (10/3/2012)
Or, you might check into recruitment firms in your area and see if any of them do technical screening for candidates.Candidates who have poor or surface/rote memorization knowledge? Some of them came from recruitment firms.
Perhaps not everywhere but I've found that's generally the rule rather than the exception. Some of them even unintentionally exclude some really good candidates by giving tests that require rote memorization of sometimes trivial and unused facts rather than experience. As others have stated, some of those questions seem to be based on myth and some are just flat out wrong compared to a real life problem. Others are simply “oolies” that someone found in some book or on the internet.
My favorite such question is “When would you use a cursor?” The desired answer is usually “When there’s no other way to do something without one” or “when it makes sense”. If you ask someone when it makes sense, many learned-by-wrote folks with give you some load of hooie that can usually be done quite easily without a cursor or While loop.
I can almost guarantee that such tests won't contain some of the more advanced techniques that some DBAs know how to use especially when it comes to T-SQL and the like. For example, if you have a server with hundreds of databases, which ones do you do full backups for on a regular basis? Surprisingly to lesser experienced DBAs, the answer is NOT "all of them" even if they're all missionn critical. Even if they manage to erg out the correct answer there, when you ask the logical follow up question of how to programmatically determine which DBs do need a full or even transaction log backup, very few of those that got the first question right will answer the second correctly because they just don't know… but they’ll be able to correctly spell the name of the priv that allows someone to bulk insert data and whether or not those two words have a space or underscore in them or not. That’s real useful knowledge when you’re looking at a menu with only one such choice. Of course, they won't actually be able to tell you most of the switches in BULK INSERT or how to move bad rows to an error file without stopping the whole batch.
Jeez. That turned into a bit of a rant, didn't it? My apologies.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 3, 2012 at 9:13 pm
Guys and Gals
This has been invaluable to me. We interviewed a couple dorks that clearly didn't have what it takes and were able to tell that quickly. I do Data Analysis/Mining, adhoc stuff, etc., been doing it for longer than I care to admit, my boss too. Our combined knowledge, while still limited about DBA's, helps, but all your input provides more details.
Through this, now lengthy, thread, we've hired a recruiting firm that is doing some more of the vetting for us as well. Our quality of candidate has improved dramaticly. Now we're dealing with the people they think they know everything and crow about it in the resume's.
So I'm going to throw this out there. I'd like to think I'm a real good read of a personality via the resume. I'd like to think I can tell a lot about the structure of the resume, the language, and even whether it's not consistant and someone has been spoon feeding them.
2 different resume's. Candidate has 17 yrs DBA exp, been around for a long time (BS CIS 1984, BS Psych 1973). His resume read like he was a relaxed individual. Very comfortable with himself which is different than being very confident. A highly confident person can be dangerous with data, lose cannon type thing. Everying I got off the resume indicated he was just not a very high strung person.
Next Candidate has 12 yrs dba exp. Lots of statements like "singlehandidly", and "sole contributor" when referring to a 2 man team meaning he did everything... Lots of first person "I did this", "I did that" probably much younger (BCS in 1997).
I'm interviewing the first one. I got him on the phone and did a phone screen and he was exactly like his resume.. calm, collected. Not really worried about whether I hired him or not. Comfortable in his own skin.
Anyone esle do it this way?
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