March 31, 2014 at 8:12 pm
Hey, I'm with you SSCrazy. I'll take a shot at summarizing.
I think WIT and other such sideline organizations are truly asking for a DIFFERENT 'yardstick', as you wisely point out. The simple yardsticks of skill, competency, and ability aren't enough, so they need to drum up additional criteria that they CAN meet that they feel makes them worthy of SPECIAL consideration. They don't want to swim with the same sharks as the rest of us. What everyone is overlooking here is that we are all 'cost centers' for the organizations we work for, and most of them only trying to get the best bang for the buck, whether male/female, black/white/hispanic/indian/chinese. I worked with them all, and I'll take skill over being P/C hands down.
Interesting sidelight here. I'm retired and on my own time. Whose time have the rest of you been on today while getting into this discussion? Unless you are on the opposite side of the globe, you should have been working to PROVE your value. And I'm NOT from Missouri.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
April 1, 2014 at 12:58 am
skeleton567 (3/31/2014)
They don't want to swim with the same sharks as the rest of us.
Actually, yes we do.
Sure, there are some groups which give them all a bad name, but they should be a small portion.
We want to be measured with the same yardstick, not a shorter one because 'oh, you can't handle what we do', not a longer one because 'oh, we can't possibly expect the same from you as everyone else'. The same one. That's equality.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 1, 2014 at 1:12 am
skeleton567 (3/31/2014)
...Interesting sidelight here. I'm retired and on my own time. Whose time have the rest of you been on today while getting into this discussion? Unless you are on the opposite side of the globe, you should have been working to PROVE your value. And I'm NOT from Missouri.
I would guess that it is a mixture of time zones, breaks, "stolen moments" in a well over contract length day and whilst walking the dog.
All of the above for me 😉
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
April 1, 2014 at 1:18 am
Gary Varga (4/1/2014)
I would guess that it is a mixture of time zones, breaks, "stolen moments" in a well over contract length day and whilst walking the dog.
I was, ummm, waiting for the SQL source code to compile 😀
April 1, 2014 at 6:07 am
Now that's believable. 😀
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
April 1, 2014 at 7:47 am
Stephanie J Brown (3/31/2014)
I think what skeleton567 may be trying to say is that the NAME of the group perpetuates stereotypes. [font="Arial Black"]If instead of "Women in Technology" the group was called "Breaking Barriers in Technology", it might be viewed through a different lens. [/font] Although that's a little like saying the name PASS builds barriers between SQL Server professionals and Oracle professionals (which might occur, but I think is not that likely).For an interesting take on "diversity", I'd recommend the book "It's Your Ship" by (former) Captain D.Michael Abrashoff - the section called "Forget Diversity, Train for Unity" (page 169). It seems the ship's diversity training wasn't having the desired effect (and possibly no effect all other than to magnify people's differences). Unity training, by contract, focuses on what people have in common, and thus tends to build bonds, as long as it is done correctly and with intent.
A major component of unity training, at least as Abrashoff conducted it, was to act IMMEDIATELY to any incident of harassment or dis-respect, and to act according to known rules for behavior which included everyone knowing the disciplinary action that would be take if the rules were broken.
My hat is off to all who participate in a "Women in Technology" group - thanks for helping promote the thought than ANYONE can be successful in technology given the proper training and tools, and a good work ethic. Because yes, it still IS more difficult for women and other minorities, and will continue to be so until the management levels reflect the same diversity as the work force.
And while PASS is supportive of these groups, I would suggest that they need to take additional steps to stamp out harassment. In my opinion, anyone at a PASS conference or event that indulges in harassment of any kind should be removed from that event and not allowed to return for the duration of the event. And that rule should be clearly stated in the signup information (and no, they should not get a refund). If members of a professional organization cannot treat each other with respect, then they are not truly professionals and they don't deserve to be there. IMHO.
Full disclosure: Yes, I'm a woman. Yes, I've been discriminated against. No, I wouldn't quit the profession because of it - discrimination exists everywhere so why should I quit? Yes, I have taken action and sometimes been successful in that action when discriminated against. Yes, I support others when I see (witness) them being discriminated against. And yes, I still see or hear about it every week in my personal life - women or other minorities de-valued simply because of who they are. So yes, I think we need to take action wherever we can to "re-educate" those who harass minorities of any kind, who play the stereotype game, who are so small inside that they can only rise by trampling others.
I really like this (except that PASS [font="Arial Black"]should [/font]help us discriminate against Oracle 😀 ). I especially like the part that's bolded above. Well said, Stephanie.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
April 1, 2014 at 7:55 am
Jeff Moden (4/1/2014)
Stephanie J Brown (3/31/2014)
I think what skeleton567 may be trying to say is that the NAME of the group perpetuates stereotypes. [font="Arial Black"]If instead of "Women in Technology" the group was called "Breaking Barriers in Technology", it might be viewed through a different lens. [/font] Although that's a little like saying the name PASS builds barriers between SQL Server professionals and Oracle professionals (which might occur, but I think is not that likely)....
I really like this (except that PASS [font="Arial Black"]should [/font]help us discriminate against Oracle 😀 ). I especially like the part that's bolded above. Well said, Stephanie.
I find that Oracle (particularly the antiquated tooling) helps us discriminate against itself 😉
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
April 1, 2014 at 8:04 am
"We want to be measured with the same yardstick, not a shorter one because 'oh, you can't handle what we do', not a longer one because 'oh, we can't possibly expect the same from you as everyone else'. The same one. That's equality."
Let me relate my real own experience with yardsticks. The largest salary increase I ever achieved without changing jobs was by using MY OWN yardstick.
I wrote a short, concise, one-page summary of my skills and abilities and CONTRIBUTIONS, finishing by requesting a 6K annual salary increase and a meeting with my supervisor to discuss it. No mention of comparison to others performance, no mention of industry salary levels, just my own record. Next afternoon my supervisor stopped by my workspace and said to come to his office, sat me down, closed the door, pulled out a copy of my message, glanced at it, and said words to the effect "I don't have any problem with this. We'll make it effective the first of the month".
Moral of story: You don't necessarily improve your situation by comparing yourself to others. First make sure you are growing by your own yardstick.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
April 1, 2014 at 9:24 am
skeleton567 (4/1/2014)
No mention of comparison to others performance, no mention of industry salary levels, just my own record.
That has worked for me with some managers that appreciate what I'm doing.
In other cases my stance has been - I'm being paid well under the industry average, and this is not a discussion about performance or what "more" I can offer the company, this is purely about moving my renumeration to a fairer position.
I think there are a lot of different approaches to asking for a raise and each will work in a different situation.
April 1, 2014 at 9:30 am
skeleton567 wrote:
Interesting sidelight here. I'm retired and on my own time. Whose time have the rest of you been on today while getting into this discussion? Unless you are on the opposite side of the globe, you should have been working to PROVE your value.
I don't think anyone here is failing to prove their value simply because they are participating in this discussion.
And I don't think anyone owes you an explanation, either.
Enjoy your retirement.
April 1, 2014 at 10:06 am
"That has worked for me with some managers that appreciate what I'm doing.
In other cases my stance has been - I'm being paid well under the industry average, and this is not a discussion about performance or what "more" I can offer the company, this is purely about moving my renumeration to a fairer position.
I think there are a lot of different approaches to asking for a raise and each will work in a different situation."
Right, there are various circumstances that require different approaches. Use caution on quoting 'industry averages' in that these are obviously highly regional. I'm sitting out here in the Midwest where averages are considerable lower than in metropolitan area.
Another caution for you all still employed is that your profit-sharing, pension, or 401k contributions are critical to you whether employer funded, matched, or all self-contributed, maybe more so than your salary level. It's tax time and I've been working on records. You better not think that because your employer doesn't do anything for you that you can't either. In addition to SS, Medicare, and a small pension, I withdrew slightly more than 35K from my savings last year. The good news is that my savings still grew even with the withdrawals. Last month while in Phoenix, I read that you need 2M in net worth to live there as a retiree. Right here in the Midwest, I can tell you if you don't have 1M in net worth for your retirement you won't make it if you are that age in 2014. And it will only get worse.
Maybe we could take this discussion in a little different direction and, instead of talking about relative salary levels, hear some of your experiences in retirement savings regardless of income. Of course, lots of you will jump down my throat and scream that you can't afford this on your salary. Well, I can tell you right now that you can and you better do it. If your employer matches any funds, if you don't get at least the entire match, you are leaving cash on the table, and it is tax free until you retire.
Again, from personal experience, back in 1991 I started a new job with a salary increase. I calculated the net increase in take-home, and immediately began contributing that much to an IRA. For seven years on that job, each year's net raise went into my savings, so I never had a 'cash' raise for those seven years. And we were raising four boys ( combined family ). Soon every year my wife and I were both contributing the max to our IRA's (15%) and continued that until we both retired.
Further, if you take a new job, don't settle for waiting a year before you are allowed to participate in savings and incentive programs. Ask to be allowed to begin contributing from your first paycheck.
So, there is my challenge for continuing this discussion.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
April 1, 2014 at 10:25 am
skeleton567 (4/1/2014)
Let me relate my real own experience with yardsticks. The largest salary increase I ever achieved without changing jobs was by using MY OWN yardstick.
Good for you.
Moral of story: You don't necessarily improve your situation by comparing yourself to others. First make sure you are growing by your own yardstick.
And the point of telling this little story being?
btw, the [ quote ] tags (see left-hand panel) make following a discussion a bit easier
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
April 1, 2014 at 10:37 am
This is another one of those topics I'll have to unsubscribe from to prevent my inbox from filling up.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
April 1, 2014 at 11:35 am
GilaMonster (4/1/2014)
skeleton567 (4/1/2014)
Let me relate my real own experience with yardsticks. The largest salary increase I ever achieved without changing jobs was by using MY OWN yardstick.
Good for you.
Moral of story: You don't necessarily improve your situation by comparing yourself to others. First make sure you are growing by your own yardstick.
And the point of telling this little story being?
Gila Monster, sorry, no intent to offend. Guess I better go on over to the old guys (retirees) section. But there isn't as much action there. Who knows, maybe they are all gone. 🙂 Or maybe I'll get back to my current project of parsing data from text.
Merlot/margarita time is any time this afternoon after lunch. C'mon out and I'll pour ya one. Cheers
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
April 1, 2014 at 12:02 pm
Question to those commenting, have you actually attended a WIT event?
Those who say they don't know what WIT "wants", have you bothered to find out?
Granted, it's been a year or two since I attended, but having been present for three or four back then, NOBODY was saying "we need to be measured differently", or "I want to be awarded for anything other than my accomplishments", and it is insulting to every one of those participants in the discussion that anyone assumes that to be the case. Those participants were not/are not all women.
WIT is about a discussion, recognizing factual context of fewer Women In Technology, hoping that people will consider those facts and perhaps not actively discourage women of all ages from being involved in any sort of technology. This might be as simple as what kinds of toys you buy your neice vs your nephew, or that moment when you say "Oh, sorry, I didn't talk to you about that because I assumed you wouldn't be interested".
Should it be renamed to "Breaking Barriers To Technology", as suggested previously? Great idea, IMHO, but that doesn't reduce the importance of the WIT discussion.
Personal facts: I am white, male, not quite 40, and I went to those discussions because I felt they were important and wanted to be part of that discussion so that I could think about my own actions. What did you do?
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