March 31, 2014 at 12:35 pm
I think what skeleton567 may be trying to say is that the NAME of the group perpetuates stereotypes. If instead of "Women in Technology" the group was called "Breaking Barriers in Technology", it might be viewed through a different lens. Although that's a little like saying the name PASS builds barriers between SQL Server professionals and Oracle professionals (which might occur, but I think is not that likely).
For an interesting take on "diversity", I'd recommend the book "It's Your Ship" by (former) Captain D.Michael Abrashoff - the section called "Forget Diversity, Train for Unity" (page 169). It seems the ship's diversity training wasn't having the desired effect (and possibly no effect all other than to magnify people's differences). Unity training, by contract, focuses on what people have in common, and thus tends to build bonds, as long as it is done correctly and with intent.
A major component of unity training, at least as Abrashoff conducted it, was to act IMMEDIATELY to any incident of harassment or dis-respect, and to act according to known rules for behavior which included everyone knowing the disciplinary action that would be take if the rules were broken.
My hat is off to all who participate in a "Women in Technology" group - thanks for helping promote the thought than ANYONE can be successful in technology given the proper training and tools, and a good work ethic. Because yes, it still IS more difficult for women and other minorities, and will continue to be so until the management levels reflect the same diversity as the work force.
And while PASS is supportive of these groups, I would suggest that they need to take additional steps to stamp out harassment. In my opinion, anyone at a PASS conference or event that indulges in harassment of any kind should be removed from that event and not allowed to return for the duration of the event. And that rule should be clearly stated in the signup information (and no, they should not get a refund). If members of a professional organization cannot treat each other with respect, then they are not truly professionals and they don't deserve to be there. IMHO.
Full disclosure: Yes, I'm a woman. Yes, I've been discriminated against. No, I wouldn't quit the profession because of it - discrimination exists everywhere so why should I quit? Yes, I have taken action and sometimes been successful in that action when discriminated against. Yes, I support others when I see (witness) them being discriminated against. And yes, I still see or hear about it every week in my personal life - women or other minorities de-valued simply because of who they are. So yes, I think we need to take action wherever we can to "re-educate" those who harass minorities of any kind, who play the stereotype game, who are so small inside that they can only rise by trampling others.
Steph Brown
March 31, 2014 at 12:39 pm
I felt the condescension was in the "I assumed you'd be able to figure that out for yourself."
"No, it was in the 'Wow, that really is pretty goofy. Sounds like programmer's logic to me.'"
Well, the choice of 'goofy guy' was yours, wasn't it? I guess you couldn't hear my tongue in my cheek.
"I'd invite you to read my subsequent posts in this thread. I think Eric Russell and Steve Jones understood the thoughts I'd laid out in them. If you still have questions after doing so, I'd be happy to attempt answering you."
When I interviewed for my first programmer job, my socioeconomic status (farm kid raised to earn $1.00 per ACRE weeding soybean fields) was not an issue, pro or con. They were interested in how well I could learn and do the job in IT. When I subsequently interviewed applicants for IT jobs, I was interested in their ATTITUDE first, their ability to think clearly and logically, and how well I thought they could be mentored and developed into productive employees.
You see, I never had the luxury of ANY formal IT education either until AFTER I had achieved my first programming position. but my successful 42-year career, including 11 years of management, had nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with socioeconomic status. Nobody cut me any slack because I was a poor farm kid.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
March 31, 2014 at 12:46 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (3/31/2014)
Gary Varga (3/31/2014)
I think that these groups are great as long as their long term task is to make their own existence redundant (even if we believe that this may never happen). Why do I say this? Simply because they exist because they need to. Those that have agreed with my sentiment do not want to be separated from the majorities themselves but feel that the have been excluded by the majority (or by a small group that exist within the majority). That is a shame and it must be the long term goal for these groups to invalidate themselves.Perhaps, but people are always struggling to become part of the mainstream and we'll never include everyone in the mainstream. There will always be challenges for groups. While some might become less necessary, other groups will be needed.
The key, IMHO, is that these groups evolve to keep helping their members. The purpose can't be for the group to succeed and grow, but that the members succeed and grow.
I see your point. I was just thinking that hypothetically if perfect equality was attained then such groups would be successfully meaningless, however, I cannot imagine this ever happening.
Shame really. I would like to say that prejudice only came from a tiny minority but I just don't believe it 🙁
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
March 31, 2014 at 12:49 pm
"I think what skeleton567 may be trying to say is that the NAME of the group perpetuates stereotypes. If instead of "Women in Technology" the group was called "Breaking Barriers in Technology", it might be viewed through a different lens. Although that's a little like saying the name PASS builds barriers between SQL Server professionals and Oracle professionals (which might occur, but I think is not that likely)."
Right on, Steph. It's like me starting a splinter organization called 'Old White Guys in IT" It would be more about trying to make someone feel sorry for me than about promoting good IT skills and practices. It all goes to attitude and motivation. I don't feel discriminated for or against because I'm old or white. I just want to be a skilled professional and be recognized for that alone.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
March 31, 2014 at 1:08 pm
You see, I never had the luxury of ANY formal IT education either until AFTER I had achieved my first programming position. but my successful 42-year career, including 11 years of management, had nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with socioeconomic status. Nobody cut me any slack because I was a poor farm kid.
Well, my hat's off to you. Much of your success is no doubt due to native intelligence and plain old-fashioned hard work. A little luck doesn't hurt, either.
I'm the son of an automobile mechanic and a secretary. We weren't well off, either. And like you, I've has a successful IT career, stretching 36 years, including the last 20 in management.
But where we part company is that you seem to think we should extrapolate your own experience - as positive and as uplifting as it is - to every other poor person in the US, whether white, black, brown, male or female.
Life doesn't work like that. Not every person is born into the same circumstances, can follow the same path (or indeed, knows where the path is or even that it exists), or gets the same breaks. And it's a different country than it was 42 years ago - it's gotten meaner and more uncaring about the poor and their daily challenges.
I think it's time to leave tribal identities behind - what race or gender we are - and start helping people who simply need the help. And believe me, they're out there. Millions of them, who have gotten left behind.
March 31, 2014 at 1:33 pm
"But where we part company is that you seem to think we should extrapolate your own experience - as positive and as uplifting as it is - to every other poor person in the US, whether white, black, brown, male or female.
Life doesn't work like that. Not every person is born into the same circumstances, can follow the same path (or indeed, knows where the path is or even that it exists), or gets the same breaks. And it's a different country than it was 42 years ago - it's gotten meaner and more uncaring about the poor and their daily challenges.
I think it's time to leave tribal identities behind - what race or gender we are - and start helping people who simply need the help. And believe me, they're out there. Millions of them, who have gotten left behind."
Goofy, I think where we part company is instead that I believe we owe all people equal OPPORTUNITY, but not equal RESULTS. The results should be up to the individual based on individual performance, not group identity. Yes, lots of people need help, but for drastically different reasons. OK, so when I interview you, I'll do it behind one-way glass with a voice scrambler. I'm still going to ask you the same hard technical and attitudinal questions. And you tell me what you can contribute, not what I owe you. This is a good reason for internships, of which I mentored several.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
March 31, 2014 at 1:39 pm
I think where we part company is instead that I believe we owe all people equal OPPORTUNITY, but not equal RESULTS.
No, not true. I agree with you on that point, and if I seemed to indicate to the contrary, the fault is mine.
I very much want to provide equal opportunities, but I don't think it's wise to do so on the basis of race and/or gender. The real divide in this nation, I feel, is income disparity; poverty isn't choosy about who it afflicts. If we as successful IT professionals want to reach out to others, I would be much happier doing so whilst being blind to race and gender.
March 31, 2014 at 2:15 pm
"The real divide in this nation, I feel, is income disparity; poverty isn't choosy about who it afflicts."
This whole new argument based on income disparity is mind-boggling to any rational individual. Of course there is income disparity, should be, and always will be. You said you are a manager. Do you pay all your employees that same amount? I doubt it. You most likely base pay on experience, education, attitude, productivity, skill set. That's not disparity, it's just common sense. Would you hire me if I told you I expected to be paid the same as your best, most experienced employee even though I had not yet proved to be worthy? Or even more un-PC, should I expect you to hire me if I told you I were a young female and need your position so that next year I can take paid maternity leave? Is that poverty not being choosy about who it afflicts?
Socialism and it's attempts to make everyone equal has failed in every instance where it has been tried. Our Founding Fathers were extremely wise when they stated that we are all CREATED equal. From there on, it is up to the individual as to what they DO with it by the choices they make.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
March 31, 2014 at 2:21 pm
Here is the link to an article on SportsIllustrated.com on the pressures faced by women and minority sports writers and reporters.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/more/news/20140330/race-sports-media-panel-racism-sexism/?eref=sihp
The very first question is regarding comments on social media. So it's pretty obvious that there is a lot of bias and hatred out there, and equally hard to say that these attitudes aren't carried over by those individuals into the workplace. Someone who isn't part of a group that faces some sort bias and/or discrimination really shouldn't be telling those who are how to deal with it.
March 31, 2014 at 2:26 pm
Having lived in a nation that doesn't recognize a fundamental human Right To Internet, I was still using dial-up and DSL long after most people had access to cable and satellite connectivity. However, I never let broadband disparity hold me back.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
March 31, 2014 at 2:43 pm
skeleton567 (3/31/2014)
I just want to be a skilled professional and be recognized for that alone.
That would be very nice.
I have before been asked if I'm at the wrong interview, because this one is for a technical position (I was interviewing for a web developer position, didn't get that job)
I've been mistaken for the HR representative when I was the one interviewing candidates (the HR rep was the very smartly-dressed gentleman)
I've been told there was no way I could possibly manage the workload involved in a B.Sc degree majoring in Physics and Computer Science (when the person before me had exactly the same course structure approved without comment)
I've had people at conferences (not PASS) assume that I'm attending because my husband couldn't make it (I'm single)
I've had people at conferences assume that I'm only there to flirt and party.
I've had people at technical events turn to me (while in a casual conversation over lunch) and explain technical terms as if I was 5 years old.
I just want to be recognised as a skilled professional.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
March 31, 2014 at 2:45 pm
skeleton567 (3/31/2014)
"The real divide in this nation, I feel, is income disparity; poverty isn't choosy about who it afflicts."This whole new argument based on income disparity is mind-boggling to any rational individual. Of course there is income disparity, should be, and always will be. You said you are a manager. Do you pay all your employees that same amount? I doubt it. You most likely base pay on experience, education, attitude, productivity, skill set. That's not disparity, it's just common sense. Would you hire me if I told you I expected to be paid the same as your best, most experienced employee even though I had not yet proved to be worthy? Or even more un-PC, should I expect you to hire me if I told you I were a young female and need your position so that next year I can take paid maternity leave? Is that poverty not being choosy about who it afflicts?
Socialism and it's attempts to make everyone equal has failed in every instance where it has been tried. Our Founding Fathers were extremely wise when they stated that we are all CREATED equal. From there on, it is up to the individual as to what they DO with it by the choices they make.
Okay, let's slow down and put the Tea Party shtick aside for a bit. Fife and drum corps, dismissed!
Because no-one said anything about socialism. What is being discussed in this thread is education and outreach to others who haven't had the same opportunities as we have (or who are even alert to those opportunities) and the transforming effect that education can have on people's lives.
Poverty affects people without regard to their race or gender. Education and outreach can help lift that burden, if people are willing to take advantage of them. There is nothing 'socialist' about that.
Okay, I'm finished. Cue the fife and drum corps.
March 31, 2014 at 2:54 pm
skeleton567 (3/31/2014)
"The real divide in this nation, I feel, is income disparity; poverty isn't choosy about who it afflicts."This whole new argument based on income disparity is mind-boggling to any rational individual.
Actually there are folks activelly considering the relationship between income disparity and various measures of social welfare, yes, there is always going to be a measure of income disparity, but the "whole new argument" is probably about the degree to which this disparity can become and not be a net harm to the way society functions. What I'm reading is that the current degree of income disparity (or alternatively, wealth accumulation) could have some real downsides for society.
March 31, 2014 at 3:36 pm
The various "X in technology" groups also serve a function in making others aware of the legitimate differences between their group and others. This includes benefits the group may have to offer, and how to not inadvertently discourage them in the work place.
Consider people with migraines, or other medical conditions. Anyone who doesn't have the same condition may not fully understand what these mean. I don't have migraines, so I won't claim to fully understand them. I do know that it's more than "just a bad headache." Also that the bright lighting that I may prefer can be distressful for someone with migraines. It can be difficult for someone with a medical condition to talk about it, or describe the impacts of the condition effectively.
The same applies to other groups, whether that group is based on ethnicity, sexuality, religion, economic or social status, education, prior occupation, medical, or any other criteria.
While assuming that all individuals in a group are the same is bad stereotyping, saying that overall a group has certain characteristics, experiences and perspectives is valid. And explaining how these differences may be valuable to an organization is a service. Explaining how "a womans' perspective" might differ from and benefit an all-male organization is not necessarily a bad thing (unless you generalize this to all individual women and men).
I don't generally consider myself to be a bigot, but I have to admit that I am not entirely nondiscriminatory. Ethnocentrism is a fact of life, and I am the product of my past and upbringing. This leaves me with blind spots when it comes to dealing with others or seeing problems. Unless someone educates me, I'm not likely to know I'm doing anything that someone might find objectionable until I step knee deep into it.
One of the best reason for a diverse workplace is that all these different perspectives and backgrounds help to avoid running into problems in people's blind spots.
I know of a few programmer groups that are very much tied to procedural programming. They could really use some fresh perspectives from some people that have real "object oriented" and "set based" backgrounds; around here those are the ones who seem to be a discriminated against minority group. Maybe we need some "Real Experts in Technology" advocacy groups. 😉
It's not just about being "tolerant" of others; it's about being able to appreciate and accept differences. It's also not about providing an easier road for some, but about not making the road impassible for others. It's not about "everyone being the same," but being able to value diversity and being open to others that aren't just like ourselves.
David Lathrop
DBA
WA Dept of Health
March 31, 2014 at 3:58 pm
I started a career in IT when being a bit odd was kind of expected. It wasn't a case of minority-x in technology it was a case of minority-x WAS technology!
As someone with Aspergers I find it very difficult to understand precisely what WIT actually want or need. Apart from being respected and judged by the same yardstick is there anything more specific?
Is there anything in particular a person of a particular colour needs or is it simply respect and the same yardstick? It's probably a niaive question but do we have racism in IT in the UK? Certainly where I work it's multi-national, multi race and mega fun.
Religious things I know about. Prayer times, direction of Mecca, location of mosque, synagogue (comedy club for Jedi knights). Make sure food for brown bags include an alternative to bacon for Jews and Muslims, alternative to beef for Hindus, alternatives to meat for Budhists. I know my optically challenged (and much esteemed) colleague appreciates a shoulder in dim lighting conditions. I know one or two colleages really do need the disabled car parking spaces and appreciate doors being held open for them.
These are clear requirements, easily understood and catered for.
The nebulous stuff just frustrates. Its like a performance review that says you aren't doing well but refuses to elaborate on how to improve. Its death by 1,000 cuts.
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