August 28, 2013 at 8:32 am
I agree it's a boneheaded attitude and I wish I could say I wasn't surprised. It's bad enough in Western culture but it's ridiculously worse in non-Western cultures (and has been for centuries). The world's got a llllonnngg way to go when it comes to this subject. Keep up the fight ladies.
But I still think it's a bad idea to let them own property or drive.... just kidding...just kidding.
August 28, 2013 at 8:42 am
Wow. Judging someone's technical and presentation ability on gender/looks/religion is <insert morally degrading phrases here>.
Look in the mirror next time you feel biased against someone.
I'd rather hear the presentation of the lady in question. If the conference director is that biased, he's probably jealous she was considered for speaking! 🙂
August 28, 2013 at 8:43 am
Totally agree Steve! Atrocious!!!!!
August 28, 2013 at 8:43 am
Vera-428803 (8/28/2013)
It's not a matter of finding the right man for the job, it's about finding the right PERSON for the job.I sometimes speak at schools to stimulate girls to start an education in ICT because I am convinced that women have their place in ICT. Most girls are scared because of the technical aspect of the job and unfortunately the expression of the UG leader doesn't help to take this prejustice away.
Kind regards,
Vera
Good for you, and nice to see good role models.
August 28, 2013 at 8:46 am
chappellc (8/28/2013)
Steve,I would hope that you would at the very least forward this forum link to the person in question. Perhaps a solid verbal bashing by a growing group of peers would do more to enlighten him than anything else.
I don't know who it is and don't want to accuse someone if I don't have first hand knowledge.
I'm hoping this piece brings light to the situation.
August 28, 2013 at 8:48 am
phonetictalk (8/28/2013)
djackson 22568 (8/28/2013)
First, groups that support a single gender, race or ethnicity are just as bad when it comes to continuing prejudice, and for those people who are ignorant enough to spout the BS you referenced, those groups only further the prejudice by making those people think the group is getting special treatment BECAUSE they aren't qualified!Please, no more special groups!
There's been a few statements in the comments section denigrating subgroups like Women in Technology and suggesting their mere existence perpetuates stereotypes.
I strongly disagree.
On the day that I became a citizen of the USA, the judge specifically said that being American doesn't mean that I shouldn't celebrate where I was born and the culture I was raised in.
I think the same logic applies here. Being "assimilated" into the wider community doesn't mean giving up or ignoring the fact that you're a woman (or a black man or a Chinese woman). We don't have to hide our differences entirely and pretend we are all one and the same in order to eliminate prejudice and stereotypes. We can celebrate our differences (which can include being members of subgroups) whilst still being respected in the wider community.
I heartily support the Women in Technology group.
+1. Better response than I had. Thanks.
August 28, 2013 at 9:01 am
As long as there are clowns in charge who think the ability to deliver technical content to a group is ruled by anything other than talent, hard work and the ability to articulate complex concepts in a clear, concise way there will be a need for special interest sub-groups where other voices can be heard.
Which is unfortunate. It would be much better to be unified in our pursuit of excellence in SQL server. My favorite posts and threads are the spirited differences of technical opinon where I am able to learn from both sides. 🙂
50 years after MLK's Dream speech we are closer to making the dream a reality. Each of us can still push a little further towards that Star Trek like workplace where individuals are valued for ideas and work ethics.
August 28, 2013 at 9:11 am
WOW, I wonder how often that was said when African Americans applied for jobs in the south at an all white company??? WOW.
August 28, 2013 at 9:18 am
phonetictalk (8/28/2013)
djackson 22568 (8/28/2013)
First, groups that support a single gender, race or ethnicity are just as bad when it comes to continuing prejudice, and for those people who are ignorant enough to spout the BS you referenced, those groups only further the prejudice by making those people think the group is getting special treatment BECAUSE they aren't qualified!Please, no more special groups!
There's been a few statements in the comments section denigrating subgroups like Women in Technology and suggesting their mere existence perpetuates stereotypes.
I strongly disagree.
On the day that I became a citizen of the USA, the judge specifically said that being American doesn't mean that I shouldn't celebrate where I was born and the culture I was raised in.
I think the same logic applies here. Being "assimilated" into the wider community doesn't mean giving up or ignoring the fact that you're a woman (or a black man or a Chinese woman). We don't have to hide our differences entirely and pretend we are all one and the same in order to eliminate prejudice and stereotypes. We can celebrate our differences (which can include being members of subgroups) whilst still being respected in the wider community.
I heartily support the Women in Technology group.
If you read the entire response I posted you would not say I was denigrating anything other than the idiots who think that women aren't as good as men in technology. What I was saying is that there are people who view groups like Women in Technology as proof that the group is incompetent. They think "if they were competent they wouldn't need a group". I don't agree with them, in fact I strongly DISAGREE with them, but I do believe it would be best to not give them excuses to support their prejudice.
I am not going to get into a debate on these groups. I respect that you heartily support the group suggestion. The reasons you mentioned are of course good reasons for starting a group like this. I have absolutely zero disagreement with your reasons. Period.
I will say that here in America only some "special people" are allowed to have groups, and others are outlawed. That is a double standard that generates racism, sexism and other prejudice. If someone wanted to start a Men in Technology group, the outcry would be ridiculous. The double standard is what causes problems.
I will also say again, like I did in the original post, that we need to accept that we are all different, and we need to celebrate those differences. Diffferences are what make us strong as a culture, race, species, whatever term you want to use. Ignoring those differences and pretending they don't exist is where a lot of problems stem from.
Dave
August 28, 2013 at 9:21 am
What these people do not realize is that the reason we should be open to persons different from ourselves is not because it is the "right" thing to do. It is because our experience becomes richer with very different points of view. If we stick to people who think / act like us, the experience becomes poorer. It's exactly what happens with breeding, the bigger the gene pool, the sturdier and better adapted is the resulting population.
August 28, 2013 at 9:47 am
Disgusted? Yes. Surprised? No.
When will the gender/race/religion/etc. issue finally be put down? Only when we as a community of professionals no longer tolerate it. The individual who spoke this way does not deserve hate or violence. These two things only breed more hate and violence and quite frankly, the world has enough of both.
What is needed is correction. To have highly respectable individuals approach him and with sincerity try to get to the bottom of his belief that women are not up to technical discussions. The user group that he leads also needs to not tolerate this mentality and until proven otherwise he should be quietly removed from any leadership position.
We need to be role models for the entire community and the public at large. We are individual professionals with unique insights and experiences that can only add to the strength and knowledge of the community as a whole.
August 28, 2013 at 10:05 am
This seems so absurd that these attitudes would be fostered and expressed in this century. I think our world is better for the many technical contributions and perspectives, regardless of gender or any other bias.
We really need to look past our xenophobic tendencies. We can start by being a little more secure in who we are, and why we're here. Just sayin'
Can we put together a group called people with 'Foot In Mouth In IT' or FIM-IT?
Or maybe
The 'Brotherhood of the Masticated Foot in IT' - BMF/IT has a nice ring to it.
Tom in Sacramento - For better, quicker answers on T-SQL questions, click on the following...http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Best+Practices/61537/
August 28, 2013 at 10:19 am
If the remark had come from a political figure, many of us would get it right away. Is there any reason to think that such people don't exist wihin other domains?
Of course if it were an elected political leader, we would quite possibly re-elect him (or not; it depends in part on whether it leads to a loss of favor with more powerful people). I have limited faith in the electorate. I wonder, however, if the members of this particular user's group see what they need to do.
August 28, 2013 at 10:34 am
I thought that there would be a lot of comment about this. Good.
I have worked with technically competent folks of both genders. Some more competent than others. Gender has never been a factor. Or age. So called race either. I guess I'm socially constipated. If it is not about the job then I don't give a **it!
Did somebody say that this mope was still a User Group Leader? I think that I'm with Robert Heinlein on this. Voting is an act of violence. Next group election express yourself!
ATBCharles Kincaid
August 28, 2013 at 10:40 am
Chris93147 (8/28/2013)
Disgusted? Yes. Surprised? No.When will the gender/race/religion/etc. issue finally be put down?
Never. We will always have prejudices and bigotry. We're human. We're frail and fallible as a species.
Only when we as a community of professionals no longer tolerate it. The individual who spoke this way does not deserve hate or violence. These two things only breed more hate and violence and quite frankly, the world has enough of both.
What is needed is correction. To have highly respectable individuals approach him and with sincerity try to get to the bottom of his belief that women are not up to technical discussions. The user group that he leads also needs to not tolerate this mentality and until proven otherwise he should be quietly removed from any leadership position.
We need to be role models for the entire community and the public at large. We are individual professionals with unique insights and experiences that can only add to the strength and knowledge of the community as a whole.
Yep, I wanted people to talk about this, and think about it. I'd love a frank discussion at all user groups about this.
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