Stunned

  • JLMayes

    SSC Enthusiast

    Points: 146

    Allowing the perpetrator to hide behind "not releasing many details here" lets him (presumably) to continue.

    Name names, dates, places. Allowing this cretin to continue on, unidentified, in the community allows him to keep peeing in the pool.

    Demand accountability.

  • Grant Fritchey

    SSC Guru

    Points: 396551

    I'm floored by this one too.

    And while I absolutely agree with the sentiment that the idiot, uh, I mean, the alleged offender, should be publicly called out, the situation does come down to a private conversation. So it's way too easily dodged by the miscreant just saying, "I was misunderstood. I never said that. This person is lying because of a personal vendetta." Then things get truly ugly.

    While I consider someone like that lower than whale feces, I don't think anyone will be served well by calling them out. I just wish there was an email or some evidence to back up the event. THEN...

    ----------------------------------------------------
    The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood...
    Theodore Roosevelt

    The Scary DBA
    Author of: SQL Server 2017 Query Performance Tuning, 5th Edition and SQL Server Execution Plans, 3rd Edition
    Product Evangelist for Red Gate Software

  • craig.schlieve

    Old Hand

    Points: 356

    Steve,

    I am incredibly disappointed in you. This article is disgusting. You are advocating that groups form that will cause fractures in the community to do the job that YOU should have done. When you heard that statement YOU could have done something. We don't need a group of women to get together and be an obvious target of distrust for the kind of people that would make that statement.

    Everyone needs to stand up when they hear prejudice. People need to be held accountable. You had better in some way held this person accountable. (Not advocating releasing information on here without proof that would be begging for a fight no one wants to see)

    Sometimes you need to be a MAN and not hid behind your computer like a child passive aggressively complaining about poor behavior. DO SOMETHING YOURSELF if you don't like it.

    (and this is coming from a person who has a huge prejudice against a group of people that are a major part of the data industry, I just know I have it and make more of an effort to keep an open mind around this group.)

  • Koen Verbeeck

    SSC Guru

    Points: 258965

    craig.schlieve (8/28/2013)


    Steve,

    I am incredibly disappointed in you. This article is disgusting. You are advocating that groups form that will cause fractures in the community to do the job that YOU should have done. When you heard that statement YOU could have done something. We don't need a group of women to get together and be an obvious target of distrust for the kind of people that would make that statement.

    Everyone needs to stand up when they hear prejudice. People need to be held accountable. You had better in some way held this person accountable. (Not advocating releasing information on here without proof that would be begging for a fight no one wants to see)

    Sometimes you need to be a MAN and not hid behind your computer like a child passive aggressively complaining about poor behavior. DO SOMETHING YOURSELF if you don't like it.

    (and this is coming from a person who has a huge prejudice against a group of people that are a major part of the data industry, I just know I have it and make more of an effort to keep an open mind around this group.)

    As far as I know, Steve was not in the position to intervene or do something. He just heard the story from the woman involved.

    I think he already did enough by writing this article; by letting the general public know that there are still assheads out there.

    Need an answer? No, you need a question
    My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
    MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP

  • craig.schlieve

    Old Hand

    Points: 356

    Ahh then I see my morning caffeine kick hadn't kicked in and I misread. I apologize in that case. My statement that this needs to be an individual effort still stands and everyone that hears these kind of statements should immediately put it in their place. Efforts like Steve's to say that there is still a problem won't do much to fix the problem. It needs to be addressed right away.

  • Ralph Hightower

    SSCrazy

    Points: 2804

    Stupid and ignorant! I would give a stronger opinion, but I want my comments to be rated "G".

    Years ago, my wife and I worked for a once major multi-national corporation. One of my wife's managers had the opinion that women should be barefoot and pregnant. Unfortunately, nothing could be done about that jerk, because he regularly hung out with the upper level management, BS'ing them and "brown nosing" them. That manager's programming staff had three guys and two women. I've got no respect for that jerk.

  • Koen Verbeeck

    SSC Guru

    Points: 258965

    craig.schlieve (8/28/2013)


    Ahh then I see my morning caffeine kick hadn't kicked in and I misread. I apologize in that case. My statement that this needs to be an individual effort still stands and everyone that hears these kind of statements should immediately put it in their place. Efforts like Steve's to say that there is still a problem won't do much to fix the problem. It needs to be addressed right away.

    Sure, I agree completely.

    A simple editorial will surely not solve the problem, but one can hope it inspires people to do the right thing if they ever are confronted with a similar situation.

    Need an answer? No, you need a question
    My blog at https://sqlkover.com.
    MCSE Business Intelligence - Microsoft Data Platform MVP

  • ckeller 10913

    SSC Enthusiast

    Points: 117

    GREAT article Steve. As a person living in the 21st century I am appalled that this attitude still exists and as the father of two teenage daughters I'm simply p*@%d off! Thanks for addressing this and taking a stand that we all should support.

  • sqlnaive

    SSCoach

    Points: 17435

    Koen Verbeeck (8/28/2013)


    craig.schlieve (8/28/2013)


    Steve,

    I am incredibly disappointed in you. This article is disgusting. You are advocating that groups form that will cause fractures in the community to do the job that YOU should have done. When you heard that statement YOU could have done something. We don't need a group of women to get together and be an obvious target of distrust for the kind of people that would make that statement.

    Everyone needs to stand up when they hear prejudice. People need to be held accountable. You had better in some way held this person accountable. (Not advocating releasing information on here without proof that would be begging for a fight no one wants to see)

    Sometimes you need to be a MAN and not hid behind your computer like a child passive aggressively complaining about poor behavior. DO SOMETHING YOURSELF if you don't like it.

    (and this is coming from a person who has a huge prejudice against a group of people that are a major part of the data industry, I just know I have it and make more of an effort to keep an open mind around this group.)

    As far as I know, Steve was not in the position to intervene or do something. He just heard the story from the woman involved.

    I think he already did enough by writing this article; by letting the general public know that there are still assheads out there.

    I second on this Koen. And I think even no action is required here. Some people are still bound with old fashioned thinking. Whatever Steve has done is the best approach from my perspective i.e. to give a clear indication on what's happening out there and what should rather be. I think this is the most smart & mature way of communicating the idea. We are not here to play cop and thug and punish or highlight someone. But the message should go to the people who think like that.

    And on the funnier note, I think this functionality is getting depricated and will not be supported in future versions of Technical breeds. 🙂

  • Vera-428803

    SSCrazy

    Points: 2439

    It's not a matter of finding the right man for the job, it's about finding the right PERSON for the job.

    I sometimes speak at schools to stimulate girls to start an education in ICT because I am convinced that women have their place in ICT. Most girls are scared because of the technical aspect of the job and unfortunately the expression of the UG leader doesn't help to take this prejustice away.

    Kind regards,

    Vera

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 719752

    summer_rocks (8/28/2013)


    Unfortunately, I've encountered similar situations where some folks don't believe a woman could be technically savvy. Usually once I help them through a technical problem, they realize that, wow, hey, she does know what she is doing.

    Steve - I hope the person of whom you speak subscribes to SSC. Perhaps reading the comments from the members will at least give him pause, if not change his mind (though I doubt it).

    *edited to add comment to Steve

    Hope so too

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 719752

    craig.schlieve (8/28/2013)


    Steve,

    I am incredibly disappointed in you. This article is disgusting. You are advocating that groups form that will cause fractures in the community to do the job that YOU should have done. When you heard that statement YOU could have done something. We don't need a group of women to get together and be an obvious target of distrust for the kind of people that would make that statement.

    Everyone needs to stand up when they hear prejudice. People need to be held accountable. You had better in some way held this person accountable. (Not advocating releasing information on here without proof that would be begging for a fight no one wants to see)

    Sometimes you need to be a MAN and not hid behind your computer like a child passive aggressively complaining about poor behavior. DO SOMETHING YOURSELF if you don't like it.

    (and this is coming from a person who has a huge prejudice against a group of people that are a major part of the data industry, I just know I have it and make more of an effort to keep an open mind around this group.)

    Agree completely, but this was heresay to me. Hence my first paragraph in the piece. I wasn't in the situation, or I would have likely used words that were not professional.

    As Grant mentioned, this was a conversation, and I trust the individual that reported it. Not my place to drive it further right now, only bring awareness.

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 719752

    dean.giberson 64357 (8/28/2013)


    ...

    I agree with all that you stated with one possible exception. I am torn on whether groups like "women" in technology are a good thing or not and here is why; if we continue identifying our differences instead of our sameness are we not adding to the stereo types that start prejudicial thinking in the first place? Should we not group ourselves based on interest or subject i.e SQL, .NET, etc., etc. and leave it at that. Should we not embrace everyone who has an interest in what we have an interest in and not even consider race, color, religious beliefs, gender, age etc.? Just asking.

    There's a good discussion to be had here.

    It's easy to say that we should showcase our likenesses, not our differences if you aren't experiencing issues. I have no idea if you are or not. However when you are struggling to gain acceptance, or gain some stature, how do you do it? Often the larger group/community/society in general isn't helpful.

    Having smaller groups that can bond and support each other makes sense. Would you say that survivors of cancer, or widows, or abused individuals don't need their own group they can commiserate with, gain support, learn how others feel and deal with things?

    Having these groups doesn't mean that individuals only participate in the group. It means they use the group as a way to also learn to participate in the larger community as well.

  • roger.plowman

    SSChampion

    Points: 10243

    Sigh.

    Ok, first whoever this guy was, he's an idiot. If his group allows him to lead then they're all idiots.

    Therefore let the punishment fit the crime. If that group doesn't want female speakers, don't let them *have* any! If they want to cut themselves off from 1/2 the collected wisdom of the human race, I can't think of a more just punishment that giving them exactly what they want. 🙂

    As for forming a special group (be it women, or the disabled or Martians) I think that's a horribly bad idea. It promotes the root cause of bias, which is Green Monkey Syndrome. Lord knows we're all vibrantly verdant primates, we don't need to break out a Tintometer(tm) to measure how green one of us is vs another.

  • djackson 22568

    SSChampion

    Points: 11713

    First, groups that support a single gender, race or ethnicity are just as bad when it comes to continuing prejudice, and for those people who are ignorant enough to spout the BS you referenced, those groups only further the prejudice by making those people think the group is getting special treatment BECAUSE they aren't qualified!

    Please, no more special groups!

    Second, and to the original point, there are differences in groups of people, and our RESPECT for those differences is important. However, in every group there are exceptions. In my experience, people who come to the United States legally tend to be better producers than the average American born worker. I have seen these exceptions mostly in cases where the originating country had extreme limits on who could attend school, and thus a lot of the people who simply weren't in the top 1/2% came here for a better opportunity. Those people, again in my experience, tend towards the top 5% or so - certainly hard working and intelligent people! The other side of the coin is that there are also Americans in that top 5%, but since there are more Americans... well you figure out how perception works.

    Now that example obviously doesn't apply to women, as the limited thinking individual you mentioned is comparing all women to all men. However a similar scenario does apply, in that a lot of women have had to work harder to achieve success. I know plenty of men who had it given to them. Most of the women I know who are successful are because of their hard work. It is far less common for a woman to achieve success through the "ol' boys network!"

    So, anyone in this country can be successful by working hard and learning their craft well. I suggest we all stop allowing certain people in the world to separate us into groups, which CAUSES hatred, prejudice, violence, war and other issues. We need to start realizing that we all have good points and bad points. Some of our qualities do in fact come from our gender, race or other background. We need to embrace those differences, not buy into the separation that has prevented the end of prejudice.

    Now, enough lecturing, time for a favorite story of mine. I once used to work in the plumbing industry. Everyone "knows" that only men are plumbers. Cough, cough. So when an old man came up to our counter to purchase a product, and Robbie (female) took care of him, he started crying about how he wanted a man that knew what he needed. Robbie tried to explain that she could help him, but he refused. He saw me, knew that I had been with the company for 10 years or so, and asked me to help. I traded customers, listened to what he wanted, and then, with a great big smile on my face I realized that this was something Robbie had experience in that I did not! I really enjoyed looking over to her, and asking her to explain to me what he needed. It took a minute for me to grasp the concept, as it was a very unusual and old product that wasn't available. Robbie helped me, no - educated me, on what to do to provide a solution. I turned to the old man, and gave him the short story, as his mouth hung open and flies buzzed in and out! That was a long time ago, but it is still one of my favorite experiences in life.

    Old people, young people, white people, black people, Asian people, hell maybe little green men and women, all have something to offer us if we will just listen and keep an open mind. We don't have to agree with everyone, but it sure helps to listen.

    Dave

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