MCJ - The Missing Link

  • SQLRNNR

    SSC Guru

    Points: 281210

    If you haven't seen it yet, there is a pretty good discussion on the Missing Certification based on an Editorial by Steve Jones. You can check out that discussion here.

    The discussion had once upon been summarized into some talking points, and it is time once again to do that. This time we will summarize here, and try to direct the conversation from this new location. If you want to see the first summary, check out the blog on it here.

    At this point we are discussing each of the bulleted items from that blog and determining how best to handle them.

    Current items of discussion are a) Time in Service, b) Review Board, c) a new requirement to be added which is recertification / renewal.

    A) Time in service is pretty close to being tabled. The idea is currently that the requirement be somewhat relaxed and that each candidate have 1.5 yr Database related experience. This topic could be discussed at greater length, depending on how the discussion goes with it. There is a vote currently on this topic based on the following criteria.


    The candidate attests to a minimum of 18 months hands-on experience in SQL Server. Willfully misrepresenting (lying) about this is subject to a permanent revocation of this certification.

    This does NOT mean an equivalent of 18 months of 8 hr days with hands-on experience; this means 18 months of any hands-on experience. This can be as a developer, DBA, or in BI (SSAS/SSIS/SSRS).


    B) The Review Board discussion has just gotten under way. We hope to find a lot of input on this topic.

    C) Recertification has come up during our discussions on the TIS. This has been discussed to some point. We will discuss further if need to in order to reach a consensus. Right now the gist revolves around an interview or exam to renew the certification. The certification should expire after some time, and people need to demonstrate continuing effort in this field to maintain current certification. However, if the cert lapses, the certification isn't necessarily revoked.

    Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
    _______________________________________________
    I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
    SQL RNNR
    Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
    Learn Extended Events

  • SQLRNNR

    SSC Guru

    Points: 281210

    Something from the old thread that should be ported over.

    WayneS (4/5/2010)


    CirquedeSQLeil (4/5/2010)


    How about we move on to a new topic?

    I think the next viable topic would be to hash out how the review board should be handled.

    So, how will we propose this particular requirement?

    Well, to start off, there are several distinct areas to cover:

    1. Who qualifies to be sit on the board?

    2. Where will the board convene?

    3. How often will the board convene?

    4. What topics will be covered by the board?

    5. How large should the board be?

    I suggest that we actually tackle these individually. However, it might be best to just throw things out that can cover all of these for a little bit, to get the conversation going.

    It has been mentioned that it would be good to have boards at events / conventions (i.e. PASS, SQL Saturday, etc.). I agree with this, but we need to ensure that there are enough different people there to run multiple boards so that we don't end up with one group of people where all they do is do boards... they probably want to see what all is going on at the event also. (Unless they are being paid to be there for the purpose of conducting a board...)

    It has also been mentioned that the board should be local. And in cases where it becomes a hardship to attend a board, that provisions to conduct the board via web-cam be available. I like both of these suggestions, but recognize that in order to have quality people sit on the board, we may need for some of them to actually be there virtually via web-cam also.

    My initial thought as to who should sit on the board was to use MVPs. However, I immediately shot this down... because MVP does NOT mean that they are knowledgeable of the product to that depth, but instead this is a recognition of their evangalism of the product. This isn't to say that we should exclude MVPs; but that depth of knowledge is more important. I'm certain that MVPs will be on this board, but that should not be the criteria. I think that every attempt should be made to get at least two board members physically at the board, with the board consisting of 4-5 persons.

    Does someone that has earned this certification automatically qualify to sit on a board? After all, they have demonstrated a deeper knowledge of sql.

    What should be covered?

    Index structures.

    Indexing.

    Clustering.

    Mirroring.

    Log shipping.

    Replication.

    Performance tuning (how to read execution plans / statistics).

    Server configuration.

    Time to let other people in with their thoughts...

    Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
    _______________________________________________
    I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
    SQL RNNR
    Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
    Learn Extended Events

  • SQLRNNR

    SSC Guru

    Points: 281210

    I think another important thing that needs to be done with this information is to disseminate it.

    dma-669038 has taken the idea to her UG. I think following that example would help to increase more information flow and get a broader sense of what should be involved with this certification.

    It should also be important to note, this is not yet a certification. This is merely an attempt to propose a change and offer a solution as we see fit.

    Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
    _______________________________________________
    I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
    SQL RNNR
    Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
    Learn Extended Events

  • Jeff Moden

    SSC Guru

    Points: 993897

    I'd rather see the discussion continue on the thread which started it all rather than essentially double posting. Sorry Jason.

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
    "If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."--Red Adair
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not."
    When you put the right degree of spin on it, the number 3|8 is also a glyph that describes the nature of a DBAs job. 😉

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems

  • SQLRNNR

    SSC Guru

    Points: 281210

    Jeff Moden (4/5/2010)


    I'd rather see the discussion continue on the thread which started it all rather than essentially double posting. Sorry Jason.

    I know. There are reasons to move it from there to here though. I agree with the reasons. Some of it is that there is a lot to wade through over there. Having this info here, may make it easier for other people to follow the thread and provide good feedback.

    Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
    _______________________________________________
    I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
    SQL RNNR
    Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
    Learn Extended Events

  • Jeff Moden

    SSC Guru

    Points: 993897

    CirquedeSQLeil (4/5/2010)


    Jeff Moden (4/5/2010)


    I'd rather see the discussion continue on the thread which started it all rather than essentially double posting. Sorry Jason.

    I know. There are reasons to move it from there to here though. I agree with the reasons. Some of it is that there is a lot to wade through over there. Having this info here, may make it easier for other people to follow the thread and provide good feedback.

    I guess that's reasonable. Thanks for the feedback, Jason.

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
    "If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."--Red Adair
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not."
    When you put the right degree of spin on it, the number 3|8 is also a glyph that describes the nature of a DBAs job. 😉

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems

  • SQLRNNR

    SSC Guru

    Points: 281210

    Jeff Moden (4/5/2010)


    I guess that's reasonable. Thanks for the feedback, Jason.

    NP.

    Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
    _______________________________________________
    I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
    SQL RNNR
    Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
    Learn Extended Events

  • Lynn Pettis

    SSC Guru

    Points: 442116

    I know the discussion right now is the review board, but I thought I'd interject one other aspect so it doesn't get lost. Should there be one MCJ or should it be broken down similiar to the MCITP (DBA, Developer, BI) or as I had suggested earlier DBA/Developer, BI? Should all versions have a common core and then a specialization. This will be important as we discuss the review board as it could easily change the complexion of the who makes up the board.

  • SQLRNNR

    SSC Guru

    Points: 281210

    Lynn Pettis (4/5/2010)


    I know the discussion right now is the review board, but I thought I'd interject one other aspect so it doesn't get lost. Should there be one MCJ or should it be broken down similiar to the MCITP (DBA, Developer, BI) or as I had suggested earlier DBA/Developer, BI? Should all versions have a common core and then a specialization. This will be important as we discuss the review board as it could easily change the complexion of the who makes up the board.

    Let's backtrack then and refocus the discussion on that topic.

    Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
    _______________________________________________
    I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
    SQL RNNR
    Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
    Learn Extended Events

  • Lynn Pettis

    SSC Guru

    Points: 442116

    Since we are refocusing, I'll begin.

    I think that the MCJ should be broken down into to certifications; MCJ DBA/Developer and MCJ BI. As you progress in your career field there will be a merging of specific skills across specific boundries. This is particularly true between DBA and Developer as both will begin to learn to write better performing code, creating better indexes, reading and understanding execution plans, etc. The BI world, however, I don't necessarily see as much cross over with DBA/Developers. Especially since MDX queries are your fathers SQL queries.

    Both should require a core understanding of the SQL Server Engine, T-SQL, Indexing, but not necessarily to the level of a DBA/Developer.

  • dma-669038

    SSCrazy

    Points: 2713

    Lynn, would you mind sharing your feedback on questions on this link http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/HLR8V5S

    We plan to send it out to a wider audience perhaps via PASS or otherwise.

    Thanks.

  • dma-669038

    SSCrazy

    Points: 2713

    Lynn Pettis (4/5/2010)


    Since we are refocusing, I'll begin.

    I think that the MCJ should be broken down into to certifications; MCJ DBA/Developer and MCJ BI. As you progress in your career field there will be a merging of specific skills across specific boundries. This is particularly true between DBA and Developer as both will begin to learn to write better performing code, creating better indexes, reading and understanding execution plans, etc. The BI world, however, I don't necessarily see as much cross over with DBA/Developers. Especially since MDX queries are your fathers SQL queries.

    Both should require a core understanding of the SQL Server Engine, T-SQL, Indexing, but not necessarily to the level of a DBA/Developer.

    There are numerous blends of these, and even with outside areas such as SAN/OS and so on. Many DBAs dont want to have anything to do with development but have a lot of interest in hardware/SAN, Operating System issues and so on. Combining DBA with Development is not going to come across as appealing to them. I suggest we keep it as 3 separate areas or create various blends that appeal to system dbas as well.

  • Lynn Pettis

    SSC Guru

    Points: 442116

    dma-669038 (4/5/2010)


    Lynn Pettis (4/5/2010)


    Since we are refocusing, I'll begin.

    I think that the MCJ should be broken down into to certifications; MCJ DBA/Developer and MCJ BI. As you progress in your career field there will be a merging of specific skills across specific boundries. This is particularly true between DBA and Developer as both will begin to learn to write better performing code, creating better indexes, reading and understanding execution plans, etc. The BI world, however, I don't necessarily see as much cross over with DBA/Developers. Especially since MDX queries are your fathers SQL queries.

    Both should require a core understanding of the SQL Server Engine, T-SQL, Indexing, but not necessarily to the level of a DBA/Developer.

    There are numerous blends of these, and even with outside areas such as SAN/OS and so on. Many DBAs dont want to have anything to do with development but have a lot of interest in hardware/SAN, Operating System issues and so on. Combining DBA with Development is not going to come across as appealing to them. I suggest we keep it as 3 separate areas or create various blends that appeal to system dbas as well.

    However, by combining the DBA/Developer we are also channeling them toward the MCM SQL Server. This certification requires that the participant have both MCITP Database Administration and MCITP Developer. Obviously there is some synergy between the two that makes since to me. Could also be that I wear both hats where I work now as well as before.

  • Lynn Pettis

    SSC Guru

    Points: 442116

    dma-669038 (4/5/2010)


    Lynn, would you mind sharing your feedback on questions on this link http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/HLR8V5S

    We plan to send it out to a wider audience perhaps via PASS or otherwise.

    Thanks.

    For anyone else wanting to use this link (edit: without having to cut/paste):

    http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/HLR8V5S

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 714668

    I would like to see it broken down, even further than just 3 general areas. I think there is value in proving T-SQL skills alone. Probably value in overall administration of a server, value in proving skills with HA, a few more. I know plenty of people that spend their career without doing replication. Some do it regularly.

    As a first cut, however, to limit the issues, I'd start with 3 or 4. I'd do a T-SQL one, and maybe slip that under the developer category. I'd do admin, and then perhaps 2 in the BI space focused on SSIS and SSRS.

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