February 7, 2011 at 6:32 am
If it were someone who didn't know what they didn't know since they were rather junior then being straight-up and getting a chance to learn would be best for all involved.
However, I also knew someone that was working somewhere I had worked who supposedly was experienced but was incapable of doing anything. She was moved around from team to team as they tried to find something she could do. Eventually she landed in the SQL team, the last place she hadn't worked. Not long after that she was let go. Mind you she racked up 3 years of working experience to add to the experience she already had. If she lived in a big enough city, she could just bounce from one job to another until retirement based on all the experience on her resume as long as no one asked for references.
February 7, 2011 at 6:54 am
Everyone holds the person who lied responsible and I do, too. But that doesn't go far enough. I also hold the folks that hired the liar responsible.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
February 7, 2011 at 7:00 am
The fact that people lie to get jobs doesn't surprise me. Take a look at the current leadership in political, business and media in most of the world and tell me how much the truth is really respected. Now we expect the people that they lead to be honest? It's disappointing in the personal business side too. I've been laid off 4 times in the past due to lies, backstabbing, etc from coworkers or executives.
February 7, 2011 at 7:12 am
Although I've never out and out lied to get a job, I admit that I did mislead folks when interviewing for my position when I knew that I could do the job.
The first time was when I was interviewing for my second job out of college. The requirement was to program in C in a VAX/VMS environment (tells you how long ago it was!). I learned how to do that while in college, but that's not what I used in my first job out of college. The requirement was to have "experience" in the field and at least at that time "experience" meant that you did it for a job -- not in school. Ironically enough, it was also the only job interview that included a test which I passed with flying colors and subsequently got the job.
The second time was when I was trying to get out of the VAX/VMS environment and into the Microsoft arena using NT 4.0. Although I had never used it in a previous job, I was fairly confident that I could do the job since I had worked on it personally on my own time. Again, I discussed the "experience" that I had and was able to answer technical questions sufficiently to secure the position. The tasks turned out to be even easier than I anticipated and the job allowed me to gain experiences in other areas as well that led me to other positions later on.
The bottom line in each case was that I knew that I had the skills to do the job although it was not under the circumstances that was deemed acceptable. Therefore, I embellished the experiences I had in order to secure the position and then proved that I could indeed perform what was expected of me.
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February 7, 2011 at 7:42 am
I know someone who did this after getting out of the Navy back in the 70's. He led people to believe he did programming when in fact he blew things up. However, he is smart, and had learned a lot sitting in with the programmers, so he was able to do the job. For his first two or three, he simply lied about what brand machine he worked on. Back then programming was relatively simplistic in that if you knew one language you could get a job.
Today companies are asking for too much and wondering why people aren't able to be found who meet the qualifications. I remember about a year after Java was released, seeing ads in the Chicago newspapers looking for five years experience in Java. Really? The only ones who might have more than a year all worked for Sun, and would work for your company if you gave them a million dollars!
I saw the same thing with .Net, and even SQL Server! How could someone have three years of experience with SQL Server 2008 in 2008?
Companies encourage applicants to lie. So in some ways I guess they get what they deserve.
On the other hand, I have never to my knowledge lied in an interview. I see no reason to. I am frustrated when I look for a job finding a job that is real, but refuse to lie because I don't want to be in a position where I can't support my family. Even when I was unemployed during the post 2000/9-11 crisis, I simply told the truth. The worst I did was say I did independent consulting, but did not mention how much work I actually had. Most of it was volunteer work for churches.
Applicants should be honest. It is better in the long run. Companies need to wake up, however, and stop treating people like dogs. They will find far better employees that way.
Dave
February 7, 2011 at 7:50 am
Mark M Webster (2/7/2011)
Such a sad topic. The best moves in my career have come from saying that I knew x could be done but, no, I didn't know how...Give me some time to figure it out? The answer has almost always been positive. I get paid to solve problems, not to know all the answers.
This has been my approach, and has been successful. And it has enabled me to tackle some really interesting challenges.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
February 7, 2011 at 7:52 am
chrisn-585491 (2/7/2011)
The fact that people lie to get jobs doesn't surprise me. Take a look at the current leadership in political, business and media in most of the world and tell me how much the truth is really respected. Now we expect the people that they lead to be honest? It's disappointing in the personal business side too. I've been laid off 4 times in the past due to lies, backstabbing, etc from coworkers or executives.
Exactly! I look fondly back on a job I had where I approached the president on a product we purchased where we were not invoiced. I wanted to pay it, without the invoice, but based on previous employment had no faith he would do that. Instead of acting like previous employers, he had me contact the vendor. This went on for six months, contacting the vendor each month. Eventually we agreed to file the receiving and clearly mark it unpaid, in case they ever woke up. They never did, but we did our honest best.
The owners of that company are unique in their honesty. They are also some of the most successful people I know.
Dave
February 7, 2011 at 7:56 am
djackson 22568 (2/7/2011)
Applicants should be honest. It is better in the long run. Companies need to wake up, however, and stop treating people like dogs. They will find far better employees that way.
Well put, and this is the chicken and the egg issue. Lying encourages this, companies' behavior encourages lying.
There have been studies, and I think if most of us were honest, we have exaggerated something we knew at some point. Maybe it was confidence that we could pick it up, maybe it was a slight stretch to not appear negative in a situation, maybe it was an omission. I don't think that you can draw a hard black/white line that lying is bad and you should immediately firing. I hate to say that because I don't want to condone someone outright fabricating knowledge about a technology they've never used, but there are degrees here to how much to stretch the extent of your skills.
I can live with someone that knows something, stretches the boundaries of their knowledge, and then works to fill in gaps. What I can't accept is someone that does so and then doesn't expect to have to learn the skills.
February 7, 2011 at 8:07 am
If you are making an effort, learning to close the gap between your skills and your claims of knowledge, you should be fine. Your boss will be more understanding of you asking for help than he will be if your efforts fail and your deceit is uncovered.
I agree with these shoulds, but I have rarely seen them happen in the people I work with. They depend on bosses being able to evaluate skills and knowledge. Even when I have given my boss books or links to explain the importance of understanding "the gap" and budgeting and managing for it, they have failed to do much. Most of my experiences match the worst ones listed above.
I think the more important issue is management knowing what their people do and what skills they need to do it. Without that, liars and manipulatros have a lot of room to move around and questions about what to do about them, even if it is yourself, are moot.
February 7, 2011 at 8:10 am
Don't know which is worse, this case, or someone who actually has the knowledge but is too lazy to put it to use...a slacker, in other words.
February 7, 2011 at 8:14 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (2/7/2011)
djackson 22568 (2/7/2011)
...There have been studies, and I think if most of us were honest, we have exaggerated something we knew at some point. ....
If we are strictly honest we'd have to admit that we lie. Interesting paradox (and a fatal flaw to the flimflam 'honesty tests' that some employers insist on using).
Occasional bouts of overconfidence are probably a natural part of discovering our limitations. It's how we handle them that makes the difference.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
February 7, 2011 at 8:20 am
I'm confused Steve. You would want to fire one of your employees if they asked for a raise more than once, but you would want an employee that lied about their qualifications to tell you?! I'd hope that you'd want them to tell you so you could fire them – if not, how insane is it to work for you?
February 7, 2011 at 8:26 am
djackson 22568 (2/7/2011)
I remember about a year after Java was released, seeing ads in the Chicago newspapers looking for five years experience in Java. Really? The only ones who might have more than a year all worked for Sun, and would work for your company if you gave them a million dollars!I saw the same thing with .Net, and even SQL Server! How could someone have three years of experience with SQL Server 2008 in 2008?
I have also witnessed the same thing. Most of it is because of recruiters or HR personnel who have no idea what it is that they're doing because they don't understand the technical implications. According to their job requirements, an applicant at a certain level must have so many years experience for the job they are required to do. They don't get the fact that sometimes there is a contradiction. What I've done in those situations is point out the contradiction then proceed to explain how my experience still fulfills their requirements.
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February 7, 2011 at 8:43 am
GilaMonster (2/7/2011)
SuperDBA-207096 (2/7/2011)
Wow. There are people who do lie on thier resumes, and I've interviewed quite a few of them. NEver ceases to amaze me... one person I interviewed was supposedly a DBA and didn't know how to do a backup.....I've had a few of them. I've had the performance tuning specialist who didn't know what an index was and had never heard of an execution plan.
I think I know that guy!
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 7, 2011 at 8:46 am
GSquared (2/7/2011)
GilaMonster (2/7/2011)
SuperDBA-207096 (2/7/2011)
Wow. There are people who do lie on thier resumes, and I've interviewed quite a few of them. NEver ceases to amaze me... one person I interviewed was supposedly a DBA and didn't know how to do a backup.....I've had a few of them. I've had the performance tuning specialist who didn't know what an index was and had never heard of an execution plan.
I think I know that guy!
Ok I won't do it again :hehe:.
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