February 7, 2011 at 8:48 am
kenny-892481 (2/7/2011)
I'm confused Steve. You would want to fire one of your employees if they asked for a raise more than once, but you would want an employee that lied about their qualifications to tell you?! I'd hope that you'd want them to tell you so you could fire them – if not, how insane is it to work for you?
I never said I would fire someone that asked for a raise twice. You totally misread that. I said that if you were soliciting other offers and asking me to match that more than once, I would let you go. I can't win the "someone else always wants to pay me more" battle. And it's a sign that someone isn't happy or has priorities that don't align with mine.
If someone lied in the interview, and they are in over their head, I would want them to come clean rather than delay, or crash a project, but show me they are trying or willing to learn. That's what I wrote. If they didn't admit to their transgression, and didn't learn more to make it better, then they do deserve to be fired, IMHO.
You are reading a lot more black and white in the world than I think I'm implying.
February 7, 2011 at 9:02 am
There really are different degrees of this. I don't think I've ever met someone who did not embellish. A resume exists to market. When a candidate, you're marketing yourself. What really counts as experience? That you've used the technology once in the past? For a decade?
I've had employers steer clear of my resume before because they assume it's embellished. But it's not. :-/ I just have a lot of different experiences due to my natural curiosity and willingness to learn new skills. Once I am hired, employers absolutely love that.
February 7, 2011 at 9:11 am
Most people will exaggerate some points (or their employment agencies do it for them - in some situations I've even seen it actively encouraged).
Back in the late 80's I had a good friend whose agency "embellished" his resume for a job interview in NYC. He had a decent interview and got the job as a C programmer but immediately knew he was in over his head in the fast moving financial services business. Really smart guy; was burning the midnight oil to get up to speed. There were no online communities back then :crazy: Thought at any time the jig was up but no. He survived and became an excellent programmer.
This is certainly not something I would try. 😀
Ken
February 7, 2011 at 9:19 am
I can agree with the last two posts.
Agencies can be sods. I interviewed a guy for one position and when I asked him about his experiences with one technology he openly admitted that he had never dealt with it in his life. It was on his CV, and this was the first time the poor guy had see it - the agency had added it on because (as he found out later and told us) "it improved his chances of getting a job".
When I am interviewing, I will tend to give the CV a cursory glance (mainly for hobbies and something to chat about), but as for experience I prefer to judge the responses from questioning the candidate to find out if they can handle the job we have available.
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February 7, 2011 at 9:22 am
I think it's common (not right but simply common) for IT people to fudge the truth on their resume or during job interviews. For example, someone who has a solid T-SQL or DBA background might say that they had experience with SSRS on a past project when really they just installed the software on their home PC a few weeks earlier and crammed a "SSRS for Dummies" book. If they're a fast learner, chances are no one will discover they're a poser, and they may even go on to be a good SSRS developer.
However, what I can't understand is someone who first totally fakes it, for example a help desk rep or recent university graduate who claims to have SQL Server experience when in fact they barely know what SQL is, and then they never even bother to follow up and close the gap by burning the midnight oil. That guy would have to be dishonest, lazy, and ignorant all rolled into one.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
February 7, 2011 at 9:23 am
Mateo1041 (2/7/2011)
...I've had employers steer clear of my resume before because they assume it's embellished. But it's not. :-/ I just have a lot of different experiences due to my natural curiosity and willingness to learn new skills. Once I am hired, employers absolutely love that.
It's been recommened that people trim unnecessary details from a resume (tailoring the resume to the job). Dragging in too many disparate things implies at best a scatter-shot approach (as in not understanding the job requirements and just seeing what flies) and at worst some level of exaggeration or even dishonesty.
A potential employer wants to know what relevant skills can be brought to the job.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
February 7, 2011 at 9:25 am
To me this sounds like every IT project that was taken on by a manager that did not understand the technology or how to implement it and then outsourced. A year later there is no money, no project, and it is all someone elses fault.
Unfortunately sometimes just know having the "gift of gab" is all you need to make something work. When this happens, it is like sharks after blood in the water.
When one mba accidently does any project or task sucessfully that should have failed, you will find 100,000 trying to repeat his results the next day.
Unfortunately this just validates the legend of "it can be done", instead of verifying it was a fluke.
The Peter Priciple http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle covers all aspects of a persons abilities in the work place. Even thier ability to cover up a lie.
February 7, 2011 at 10:00 am
Like Steve said, it's not hard to "study" for a job interview. Then you fudge your way through an interview and get the job. It's not about skills and abilities, it's about who can B.S. the most among other things.
This is not surprising to me considering the caliber of managers and other people that I've interviewed with over the past few years.
Probably a testament to my job hunting skills.
February 7, 2011 at 11:16 am
Interestingly enough, when I read this I felt a twinge of guilt. Not that I lied on my interview nor did I embellish, but I had just passed my MCTS for SQL Server 2005 and was interviewing for a full time SQL Server DBA position. I'd passed the test mostly through cramming. Was I capable of a DBA job? I'm a converted sys admin with a computer science degree who supported an application that ran on Oracle/SQL Server/Informix, which ran on the various flavors of Unix or Windows. I was very wide but very shallow, knowledge wise.
I got the job and felt COMPLETELY in over my head, which is exactly how I wanted it. In the interview, when asked about problem solving, I stated that I didn't know but would find out. And I think that's my best attribute: I know the right question to ask when trying to figure out a problem, due to my experience and education.
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February 7, 2011 at 11:36 am
To throw a little fuel on the fire...
Everyone embellishes. Everyone stretches. Why? Because noone rational wants to take the position 'below' them, with less pay, less benefits, and less responsibilities so that the next job is even better.
Yes, I said everyone. No matter who you are, even at the top of this game, you want the biggest possible slice you can get your hands on. Whether that's some of the gurus around here reaching for extabyte optimizations, or some brand new Junior DBA getting the title of Senior (and only).
So, that established... you need to make sure you can keep up with your embellishments. Do I know SSAS? No, not well. Certainly not guru level. Will I take a job doing it? Sure. 8 hours a day of concentrated exposure will certainly pick up my game a lot faster than me goofing off after getting brainfried at the job after hours. I know enough to get started, and know how to troubleshoot and research. I can fill in the gaps.
So, no, I don't want some young kid I hired to get his job done to be crawling up to my desk the instant things are a little above him. I want him to get his arse on the web, spend time after work educating himself, and go find an answer. THEN, when he has done that research and realizes he won't have the time to actually finish the entirety of it, now come talk to me.
If they're going to throw themselves under the bus at the interview they'll need to at least show me they're willing to take the lumps.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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February 7, 2011 at 11:59 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (2/7/2011)
I never said I would fire someone that asked for a raise twice. You totally misread that. I said that if you were soliciting other offers and asking me to match that more than once, I would let you go.
Steve, I hate to sound rude or be off topic, but that is how you ask for a raise.
I just texted my daughter and she confirmed that she was taught this method during her Senior year (last year). I learned it in High School also.:w00t:
Why would you consider a raise if the person could not prove that they are worth more than what you were paying them? I am not talking about a cost of living or performance pay increase. I am talking about an actual raise.
I have not heard of the corporate job that you could get a raise without doing this. Might make a good Editorial on it's own.
February 7, 2011 at 12:12 pm
SanDroid (2/7/2011)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (2/7/2011)
I never said I would fire someone that asked for a raise twice. You totally misread that. I said that if you were soliciting other offers and asking me to match that more than once, I would let you go.Steve, I hate to sound rude or be off topic, but that is how you ask for a raise.
I just texted my daughter and she confirmed that she was taught this method during her Senior year (last year). I learned it in High School also.:w00t:
The only way to do serious research into current market value is to go out and be marketed and get offers. Otherwise, salary information is at *best*, protected.
I'll just comment on that, the rest of this conversation probably belongs in the other thread.
Never stop learning, even if it hurts. Ego bruises are practically mandatory as you learn unless you've never risked enough to make a mistake.
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February 7, 2011 at 12:15 pm
Craig Farrell (2/7/2011)
The only way to do serious research into current market value is to go out and be marketed and get offers. Otherwise, salary information is at *best*, protected.I'll just comment on that, the rest of this conversation probably belongs in the other thread.
Thank you Craig.
February 7, 2011 at 1:04 pm
I have not heard of the corporate job that you could get a raise without doing this. Might make a good Editorial on it's own.
And here is it 😀 http://www.sqlservercentral.com/articles/Editorial/72279/
But why embellish? Probably because it's expected that everyone does. Put a little extra in your resume provided you can back it up. From the other standpoint, how about the company that puts out an opening in 2008 for someone with 3 years of experience in SQL 2008? It's like keeping up with the Jones' (not necessarily Steve). 🙂
February 7, 2011 at 1:37 pm
SanDroid (2/7/2011)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (2/7/2011)
I never said I would fire someone that asked for a raise twice. You totally misread that. I said that if you were soliciting other offers and asking me to match that more than once, I would let you go.Steve, I hate to sound rude or be off topic, but that is how you ask for a raise.
I would disagree with that. I can go find out that others are making more for the job I do, or show that there are offers for the job I do. I can make a case that I am bringing value to the company and deserve a raise.
I have gotten raises, and many of my friends, without going out and getting another offer. I didn't say looking, I said soliciting, meaning interviewing and getting another offer.
If that has worked for you, good for you, but I've had and seen lots of success without playing one company against another.
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