May 2, 2007 at 10:08 am
This idea of getting the answer by any means possible including cheating is being taught at the high-school level. You only have to spend an evening on Yahoo Answers to see what I mean. Students simply post their homework and wait for the answer. They don't accept 'help', they just want the answer. This is typical of many people, but I think it's being encouraged in schools.
My teachers used to make me 'show the work' and I did a lot of stuff in my head, so I would get lower grades, but I didn't care. I knew I was doing the work in my head, rather than copying the answer from somewhere else. I felt it was an integrity issue, and since I felt that what I was doing was honest, I didn't write the work, since I didn't have to 'prove I didn't cheat'. Now I realize the point of writing it down, but I surely didn't at that age.
And I agree with Chris. I see hundreds of criminals on the road every day. I've been known to break the speed limit myself, but I recently decided to stop doing that. It's funny to see how aggravated people get behind me when I'm going exactly the speed limit, relaxing, enjoying my day and driving safely. I say, If you're late you should have left earlier. I'm tired of being in a hurry all the time, and I've decided I'm no longer going to break the law to satisfy society's need to get everything done faster. I make sure my kids know the reason why I'm going so slow compared to everyone else.
When I was racing, the basic idea was to do whatever mods you could on your car, without pushing it into the dreaded 'open' class... so people did mods that should have put them in the Open class, but they were hidden so that the inspectors couldn't see it. I did this myself, with a new flywheel and computer. It takes a little honor away from the trophy on my shelf. On the other hand, I did win, and I did it the same way everyone else did. That seems to justify the cheating, but it's still wrong.
May 2, 2007 at 10:40 am
Very interesting comments and thanks for the debate.
I'll say that I'm not perfect. I've sped before and made minor transgressions of the law. I guess I wouldn't count those as cheating, though they're definitely bending your moral compass. We're human, however, and I accept we'll make mistakes.
Cheating entails taking credit for something you didn't do. Winning an event, having someone else do your work, etc. I'd like to think my oldest isn't cheating at this point in high school, or if he is, why his grades aren't better .
I used to want to win at all costs and even have gotten into arguments about this with teammates in baseball. Now I'm more mellow and I want to earn my way. Win or lose, at least I can say I did my best and only MY best. I accept my strikeouts and my errors as my own. I've talked with my son at Scouts that his achievements are his. He has to do them or not do them and accept the credit or failure.
It's a hard thing to discuss and I'm not trying to point anyone in a particular direction. I just hope you think about it and get your kids to think as well.
May 2, 2007 at 12:11 pm
For me, winning is being a man of integrity irrespective of whether anyone sees or I get the job or I get the promotion. To lie, cheat, steal, fudge, cover up, and everything like that is to automatically fail and lose. I refuse it and will have nothing to do with it.
I'm a salaried employee, but I keep track of my time to the second; when I take extra break time (for personal stuff), I clock-out (using my own efficient db system). This way I avoid stealing 2 minutes to 45 minutes a day from my employer. My boss says I'm excessive, but he doesn't have to live with my conscience.
May 2, 2007 at 12:31 pm
I'm with Johnathon on this - if you don't have personal integrity and honor, you are not a winner in any sense.
Cheating in schools has been going on ever since I was a student. There have always been those willing to "sell" or give their answers to others. (The price can be monetary, or the payoff of looking smarter to others - having a reputation.) I used to tutor in college (COBOL and BASIC, so I'm dating myself here) and I was always amazed at how many people came to me looking for the answer, rather than the understanding of how to arrive at the answer. Those people never came back more than twice, unless they changed their attitude, because I would not give out answers!
I'm glad to hear Virginia had a code of honor that they wrote down on every exam, and I think other schools would benefit by it. But I have to ask, what were the consequences if you wrote that at the top of your test, and then the person grading it found another exam exactly like yours? Steve didn't address whether the honor code was enforced or not - and without enforcement, it would just become another avenue to cheating.
I don't think working on a test with others is necessarily a bad thing when the issue is gaining an understanding of the material (although hopefully you were doing that kind of studying before the test came up!) But when you know that you're supposed to do it on your own and you break that rule, that is clearly cheating. And it can follow you thru your career. I recall that at a previous company, a former college schoolmate applied for a job in my group (I'd been out of college and in the workforce about 15 years by then). My supervisor found out I had gone to college with him, and asked me what I thought. Since that former schoolmate was claiming he had graduated from my college, which he had not (he left to take a job for which he was not qualified, and he lied about his education to get it), and I had heard a little about his escapades after that, I told my supervisor NO WAY would I work with this guy. If they hired him, I'd find a new company to work for. [Disclaimer: He was on one of my project teams, and didn't do his work tasks, which gave the rest of us a bad grade. He lied about that while he was doing it, and lied to his first employer about the grade we got on the project.]
I don't care to compromise my integrity, or work with those who have compromised theirs. The second is not always doable (how many people would be left I'd be willing to work with?) so I have to determine the minimum level of integrity required, but the first is entirely under my control. So I can look in the mirror every day, and feel comfortable with the choices I've made.
Steph Brown
May 2, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Life, for most, has always been about 'being the best'. The unfortunate part is that 'most' of us have forgotten that in order to 'be the best', one only need do two simple things:
RegardsRudy KomacsarSenior Database Administrator"Ave Caesar! - Morituri te salutamus."
May 2, 2007 at 4:21 pm
The Honor Code at Virginia was under debate when I was there and still is. If you were suspected of cheating somehow, then an Honor Court was convened, consisting of students and faculty. It was a simple trial, either guilty or innocent. Guilty was being expelled and innocent was continuing on. Note that not just cheating was covered. When I was there someone was brought before the Honor Court for stealing license plates and expelled.
There was a lot of debate about the single punishment standard. I kind of liked it, but I do understand that we all occasionally do something stupid. I'm not sure that we should pay the price of expulsion for all infractions. I think for cheating it's fine. For something else I could see probation, suspension for a semester, something else. I think you have to weigh each case on its own merits (or failings).
May 3, 2007 at 4:33 am
The problem is with the rules. It is not natural the way schools are set up, for people to work alone.
After all, the most valuable skill you can learn in school is how to get other people to do your work for you. That's called management.
And how many of you have to teach newbies out of school to a) reuse what's been done before and b) ask for help.
Plus, the whole point of university is not to learn anything, but to become credentialed. That's not what we tell ourselves, but that's the reality.
May 3, 2007 at 8:02 am
Actually I think the purpose of universities is to help you learn how to learn. And get credentialed, which shows you can stick to something for a decent length of time.
Some do teach other skills, but mostly it's learning how you can teach yourself.
May 3, 2007 at 8:24 am
My definition of CHEAT is: No to follow the rules u have accepted.
If you enter a course you must accpet the school rules.
If the exams rules are ok its another question. I think know how to find the relevant information is part of the skill to solve problems. To my concern all exams can be pratical problems and all studentes can be allowed to form teams and search for the best solutions in books, forum, etc.
Form teams and discus ways to solve big problens can be more exploited as a way to teach students how to do things in the real world.
May 3, 2007 at 2:42 pm
On my honor, I wrote this myself.
I did not have any one check it for accuracy except for spell check because I fat finger the keyboard a lot.
I did not take my terminal outside of my office to complete it as the cord would not reach.
The code I used is original American based English but maybe not in the correct syntax.
Maybe corporate America should be come more interested in how we achieve results than the results achieved though less than brilliant work by the dumming down of our society by those who can't achieve on their own.
May 4, 2007 at 8:48 am
I attended the Univ of Michigan Engr School (back in the dark ages of early '80s). The College of Engineering required us to include a similar honor pledge on each exam or major assignment apart from normal homework (collaberation and study groups was always encouraged at UM; but homework comprised a small percentage of a final grade). The pledge is burned into my memory even today...
... I certify that I have neither given nor received aid or assistance on this exam. Sign, date...
The penalty for getting caught cheating in the Engineering College was simple: expulsion. That is not to say individuals didn't cheat, but by and large, cheating was rare in the college. For those who might be tempted, watching thier friends end up out of the Engr College was warning enough.
Our parents rightly told us that cheaters never prosper. In school, that might not appear to be true; but in the real world, your reputation is built not on what you get from others but from what you can contribute yourself (anybody can beg, borrow or steal). And you don't go very far in management if you fail to give credit to your subordinates for thier work.
In my opinion, integrity outweighs natural ability any day of the week. I would much rather work with someone who I know I can count on (who may need assitance because he's not the sharpest tack) than someone I am worried is trying to undermine my reputation or takes credit for someone else's efforts -- but might also be able to can crank out code or work product like it's going out of style. You hit the sweet spot when you can work with someone who has the natural ability but maintains thier integrity at the same time.
Oh, by the way, I graduated 1/1000 of a point short of Cum Laude - and I never cheated or claimed someone else's homework as my own. I'm sure if I had done so, I could have made that difference up. But then I would know why I squeaked into the club -- someone gave me a free pass.
As it is, I can look at myself every day in the mirror and know my accomplishments are not the work product of someone else. I'll take that any day of the week.
May 4, 2007 at 9:04 am
My only comment is take home exams is a stupid concept. Also 6 people writeing the same thing down is stupod too. I think like capt Kirk. He cheated but was rewarded for doing it 1st in an inventive way. Granted this was fiction but it was written by someone that must have had an opinion about it.
What is cheating and stealing in the workplace. Takeing the obvious "theft" and "five finger discount" out of the mix what is cheating? Is lieing the same thing? From my experience companies are all about lieing. Most people get rewarded for lieing the best. I remember computer ethic's classes, what a joke. I'm certianly cinical but writeing down some secenctice like "...I certify anything" is stupid and insulting. If you think I would write anything down on something I had to turn in for a grade with that on it you have another thing comming. I would sooner find a way to bring that school to court for defamation of my char. In short that would piss me off. If I'm in public office or takeing the stand in court I have to take an oath. Nobody can tell me going to school requires an oath of any kind. I pay + they grade = results.
To the guy that keeps track of mins spent doing something personal I can only say I'm happy to make that call to my GF and do not think it stealing. We are paid for reasons that are given to us when we accept a job. I'm sure you were told to serquerster yourself and keep track of each second of your day. My job cuts into my life. I'm sallery and not paid by the hour.
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