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Coming down on bad users - WWYD ?

  • September 12, 2018 at 7:50 am

    #2005418

    JaybeeSQL - Monday, September 10, 2018 11:02 PM

    Buddy, I MYSELF don't want to be writing SQL.  

    Then why are you even in this line of work?

  • September 12, 2018 at 7:51 am

    #2005419

    xsevensinzx - Wednesday, September 12, 2018 6:17 AM

    What would I do? I mean, if I'm truly accountable, I likely would educate them as much as I could to stop whatever the hell they are doing. I mean, it's not rocket science. If you're doing a job wrong and I'm the accountable party on the project, you're going to stop. If it continues even after training, then that's another ballgame.

    If you can't get to that other ballgame because you are not accountable for these users in meaning, you are not their boss and can't get them to stop or get better. Then I would likely find someone who can and see if those resources can help resolve the problem either through them helping emphasize the education or take other actions that may not be so well liked be the users who are not improving.

    Heh... I gave the same advice and got yelled at in return because the OP didn't originally provide enough information about the problems, what he has done, etc, etc, which may actually be a part of the OPs original problem.  He claims that he'd have liked a little "solidarity" with other people on this thread but then keeps yelling at everyone.  I can understand the type of solidarity that he's looking for as well as the deep frustration that he's feeling because of both managers and users having a bit of a DILIGAF attitude but that's also a "normal" part of the job and why DBAs have to have the patience of a saint, the cunning of a master chess player, and the wisdom of when to use both.  Some communicaltion and social skills wouldn't hurt when asking WWYD on a public forum where no one actually knows what he's going through because he provided so little information in the original post, either.

    --Jeff Moden

    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

    Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems
    How to Post Performance Problems
    Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

  • September 12, 2018 at 8:04 am

    #2005427

    Jeff Moden - Wednesday, September 12, 2018 7:51 AM

    Heh... I gave the same advice and got yelled at in return because the OP didn't originally provide enough information about the problems, what he has done, etc, etc, which may actually be a part of the OPs original problem.  He claims that he'd have liked a little "solidarity" with other people on this thread but then keeps yelling at everyone.  I can understand the type of solidarity that he's looking for as well as the deep frustration that he's feeling because of both managers and users having a bit of a DILIGAF attitude but that's also a "normal" part of the job and why DBAs have to have the patience of a saint, the cunning of a master chess player, and the wisdom of when to use both.  Some communicaltion and social skills wouldn't hurt when asking WWYD on a public forum where no one actually knows what he's going through because he provided so little information in the original post, either.

    Aye, happens a lot when you want to bitch about something more than actually fixing the problem. We all fall into that trap time and time again.

    For example, I once worked for a start-up video game company. We ran into a lot of issues. I have a big mouth and like the OP, did a lot of complaining about problems I faced, but mostly with some of my co-workers. One day, my co-worker got so fed up with the constant griping, he just yelled out, "Dude, STFU and do something about it. We get nothing solved by just talking about it all the time. Let's do something about it otherwise it will never change."

    Good words of wisdom there. From that point on, I made an effort to bridge the gap in communication between me and those causing the problem. You will get no sympathy from me in this case. Hence why it's important to just get them the education or get them to stop or take it to the next level. Disagree with that and want to yell at posters? Then why are you here? :hehe:

  • September 12, 2018 at 8:19 am

    #2005430

    Jeff Moden - Wednesday, September 12, 2018 7:51 AM

    Heh... I gave the same advice and got yelled at in return because the OP didn't originally provide enough information about the problems, what he has done, etc, etc, which may actually be a part of the OPs original problem.  He claims that he'd have liked a little "solidarity" with other people on this thread but then keeps yelling at everyone.  I can understand the type of solidarity that he's looking for as well as the deep frustration that he's feeling because of both managers and users having a bit of a DILIGAF attitude but that's also a "normal" part of the job and why DBAs have to have the patience of a saint, the cunning of a master chess player, and the wisdom of when to use both.  Some communicaltion and social skills wouldn't hurt when asking WWYD on a public forum where no one actually knows what he's going through because he provided so little information in the original post, either.

    Jeff - as a fellow Jeff I want you to know that I have been the beneficiary of your wisdom several times in the past.  It has helped me and made me a better developer.  I think the OP is guilty of a same problem I (and a lot of other people too) have had in the past: wanting people to read my mind.  This little bugger strikes at the worst times and is always worsened by emotion.

    Please know that I read your advice and agree with it (I agreed with Grant's, Lynn's, and Steve's too.)

  • September 12, 2018 at 11:11 am

    #2005467

    I'll throw in my two cents as someone who is on the "causing problems" end of this discussion. If someone came to me and said "I had to shut you down because the way you did it cause X,Y,Z problems, and here's how you figure out how to get around that", I'd be MUCH more willing to fix it and even go back to that person in the future for advice during planning, to make sure I did.

    If someone came to me and said "what the hell is wrong with you, you dumb-***? I'm pulling your privileges until you're competent! I need a write-up of how you got so stupid!" then I would probably figure out a way to never, ever work with that person again. I'd keep doing what I had to do, the best I knew how, and might even research what went wrong, but I wouldn't give the time of day to that person ever again.

    I'm not saying you were that harsh, I wasn't there. But while you don't actually catch more flies with sugar than vinegar, the saying exists for a reason. Tell them what kind of problems they are causing YOU, and how it affects the company in general, and if you don't want to walk them through the fix, tell them how they can find a way on their own.

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  • September 12, 2018 at 1:04 pm

    #2005494

    Jeff Moden - Wednesday, September 12, 2018 7:51 AM

    xsevensinzx - Wednesday, September 12, 2018 6:17 AM

    What would I do? I mean, if I'm truly accountable, I likely would educate them as much as I could to stop whatever the hell they are doing. I mean, it's not rocket science. If you're doing a job wrong and I'm the accountable party on the project, you're going to stop. If it continues even after training, then that's another ballgame.

    If you can't get to that other ballgame because you are not accountable for these users in meaning, you are not their boss and can't get them to stop or get better. Then I would likely find someone who can and see if those resources can help resolve the problem either through them helping emphasize the education or take other actions that may not be so well liked be the users who are not improving.

    Heh... I gave the same advice and got yelled at in return because the OP didn't originally provide enough information about the problems, what he has done, etc, etc, which may actually be a part of the OPs original problem.  He claims that he'd have liked a little "solidarity" with other people on this thread but then keeps yelling at everyone.  I can understand the type of solidarity that he's looking for as well as the deep frustration that he's feeling because of both managers and users having a bit of a DILIGAF attitude but that's also a "normal" part of the job and why DBAs have to have the patience of a saint, the cunning of a master chess player, and the wisdom of when to use both.  Some communicaltion and social skills wouldn't hurt when asking WWYD on a public forum where no one actually knows what he's going through because he provided so little information in the original post, either.

    Well you yelled first, so there, na-na-na !!  🙂
    But of course, you weren't "Yelled" at, so to speak (actually you probably have been, literally; most people over 21 have).  That wasn't me "yelling".  Good God, you'd know if I were.  I pulled you up as I hadn't started this thread to have my own actions negatively criticised (which as a man I suppress any temptation for backlash) in favor of a delinquent user (which is where that suppression runs out),  but that's precisely what you did.  And I'm guessing now part of that was a sly way to get me feeling 2% of what User 2 felt when she skulked away from my desk.  It kinda succeeded. 
    I've seen your name about the place, I note you've given out some pretty sage advice, a couple of times to myself as well.
    As for my frustrations, I guess it dissolves down to being in that mid-tier of salary, where users 1 +2 make a bit less than us but pack out meeting rooms at 10.30am from which you can hear group laughter from across the office - yet we barely break a grin in the department.  Then you have management who make twice what we do, and don't know a backup from a restore (not quite that bad but you get the idea).  Everyone else is either doing the laughing, or getting the mega-money; well, you know, I'm gonna set a reminder in my Outlook to read a joke every hour, on the hour.  Time I chilled out a little, and join them, not beat 'em !
    🙂

  • September 12, 2018 at 2:04 pm

    #2005500

    logitestus - Wednesday, September 12, 2018 8:19 AM

    Jeff Moden - Wednesday, September 12, 2018 7:51 AM

    Heh... I gave the same advice and got yelled at in return because the OP didn't originally provide enough information about the problems, what he has done, etc, etc, which may actually be a part of the OPs original problem.  He claims that he'd have liked a little "solidarity" with other people on this thread but then keeps yelling at everyone.  I can understand the type of solidarity that he's looking for as well as the deep frustration that he's feeling because of both managers and users having a bit of a DILIGAF attitude but that's also a "normal" part of the job and why DBAs have to have the patience of a saint, the cunning of a master chess player, and the wisdom of when to use both.  Some communicaltion and social skills wouldn't hurt when asking WWYD on a public forum where no one actually knows what he's going through because he provided so little information in the original post, either.

    Jeff - as a fellow Jeff I want you to know that I have been the beneficiary of your wisdom several times in the past.  It has helped me and made me a better developer.  I think the OP is guilty of a same problem I (and a lot of other people too) have had in the past: wanting people to read my mind.  This little bugger strikes at the worst times and is always worsened by emotion.

    Please know that I read your advice and agree with it (I agreed with Grant's, Lynn's, and Steve's too.)

    I'm humbled by your response.  Thanks, Jeff.  Glad to be of help.

    --Jeff Moden

    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

    Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems
    How to Post Performance Problems
    Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

  • September 12, 2018 at 2:05 pm

    #2005501

    JaybeeSQL - Wednesday, September 12, 2018 1:04 PM

    Well you yelled first, so there, na-na-na !!  🙂
    But of course, you weren't "Yelled" at, so to speak (actually you probably have been, literally; most people over 21 have).  That wasn't me "yelling".  Good God, you'd know if I were.  I pulled you up as I hadn't started this thread to have my own actions negatively criticised (which as a man I suppress any temptation for backlash) in favor of a delinquent user (which is where that suppression runs out),  but that's precisely what you did.  And I'm guessing now part of that was a sly way to get me feeling 2% of what User 2 felt when she skulked away from my desk.  It kinda succeeded. 
    I've seen your name about the place, I note you've given out some pretty sage advice, a couple of times to myself as well.
    As for my frustrations, I guess it dissolves down to being in that mid-tier of salary, where users 1 +2 make a bit less than us but pack out meeting rooms at 10.30am from which you can hear group laughter from across the office - yet we barely break a grin in the department.  Then you have management who make twice what we do, and don't know a backup from a restore (not quite that bad but you get the idea).  Everyone else is either doing the laughing, or getting the mega-money; well, you know, I'm gonna set a reminder in my Outlook to read a joke every hour, on the hour.  Time I chilled out a little, and join them, not beat 'em !
    🙂

    Wow!  Good luck!

    --Jeff Moden

    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

    Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems
    How to Post Performance Problems
    Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

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