January 26, 2011 at 10:06 am
If I've gone on interviews and been made an offer that I've decided to accept there is no reason to negotiate with my manager. For whatever reason I've decided to leave, that decision was made prior to interviewing. I'm not going to waste anyone's time, not my soon to be ex-employer, new company or my own. If there was an option to negotiate with my current employer, that has already happened.
I've always worked with current management and the new job's management to give as much notice as possible. I've also, on occasion, made myself available on my time after I've left to help with the transition.
I've seen fellow employees approach management with offers from other companies, hoping to get a bump in pay and that, IMHO, is unprofessional. You've wasted the potential employers time and resources ($$$) on an interview, background check, drug test, etc for a job you never intended on accepting.
Also, never back your current job's management in a corner. They can be dangerous when threatened. Such as ... "There's the door & best of luck in your future pursuits."
M
Definitely! If the employee has been seeking employment elsewhere then they have already passed the point of negotiation. The scenario I envisioned from Steve's post was more of one where the employee was approached by another company. Thanks for a clarifying pov.
The three biggest mistakes in life...thinking that power = freedom, sex = love, and data = information.
January 26, 2011 at 10:11 am
boulang (1/26/2011)
Assuming all things are equal then, wouldn't you go where the money was best? Of course most people think their companies ofter their employees a better deal than others, but that's more narcissism than anything else.And as far as loyalty goes-I think you've got it backwards. Companies have been dumping employees for money longer and more often than vice versa (i.e. outsourcing).
Yes, but all things are rarely equal.
If you want something, you have to be prepared to negotiate. If you're going to negotiate, you have to give some room to maneouvre. "I'm offered X; can you match it?" is only ever going to get a blunt yes or no; there's no grey area to work with. A statement that you're unhappy with your current salary and would like to discuss it leaves far more room to move, and so is a far better opener for negotiation.
Employment is rarely just about money. Hours, atmosphere, prospects, job satisfaction, cameraderie, experience, training, location; how many of those factors would you sacrifice for a hike in salary? And to what extent would you take a cut in them? Simply ask your boss for a price match and you won't be discussing any of those (probably very pertinent) things.
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January 26, 2011 at 10:44 am
Yes, but all things are rarely equal.
If you want something, you have to be prepared to negotiate. If you're going to negotiate, you have to give some room to maneouvre.
Very powerful words indeed and I have found that most people that are unsatisfied with their current pay rate did not negotiate their salary well at the outset, and thus resort to cheesy ultimatims of this kind. Particularly, on finding out others in their department did negotiate their salary well. I have seen more crap and contention caused within a department over this in the past than I care to recollect. I have often said to both managers and co-workers "Don't penalize me because they or yourself didn't negotiate their/your salary well at the outset. Not my problem..." It should not be made to be either. I have seen people in the past that didn't deserve raises that got them, and people who deserved them and didn't just because a manager was trying to balance this out and ease the tension in his/her department. That is BS IMHO 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
January 26, 2011 at 11:09 am
boulang (1/26/2011)
Assuming all things are equal then, wouldn't you go where the money was best? Of course most people think their companies ofter their employees a better deal than others, but that's more narcissism than anything else.And as far as loyalty goes-I think you've got it backwards. Companies have been dumping employees for money longer and more often than vice versa (i.e. outsourcing).
All things are never equal. That's a nice theory, but it's never true. People, location, hours, industry, something is always different.
Companies have been dumping employees for money forever, and it's only relatively recently that employees have some power.
January 26, 2011 at 11:26 am
Steve,
While I completely agree with " You can't trust stuff you download", why are you singling out only open source: "no matter what the Open Source crowd says."
Are you implying that closed source downloads have better quality 🙂 🙂 ?
January 26, 2011 at 11:42 am
Alexander Kuznetsov (1/26/2011)
Steve,While I completely agree with " You can't trust stuff you download", why are you singling out only open source: "no matter what the Open Source crowd says."
Are you implying that closed source downloads have better quality 🙂 🙂 ?
Nope, certainly not better quality. Definitely not better time to respond.
Just the vendors caution you to test, I think because they know they haven't done a great job. I have often seen too much "just download this patch that Billy wrote for Linux or Apache and it will work. No caution.
January 26, 2011 at 12:05 pm
Here's one that drives me up the wall: "But that's the way I've always done it!"
I don't care. Time to start doing it right, better, newer technology, etc.
January 26, 2011 at 12:27 pm
Carla Wilson-484785 (1/26/2011)
Here's one that drives me up the wall: "But that's the way I've always done it!"I don't care. Time to start doing it right, better, newer technology, etc.
Working for the Gov. and I get that all the time, but if you say something, the response is "shut up and color."
Me, I like green and blue crayons!
January 26, 2011 at 12:37 pm
A lot of the dumb answers come down to the employee not helping the manager. Someone a long time ago told me that his primary (and only) job function was to make his boss look good. Whether that's solving problems, closing tickets, having processes run better and especially never being a bottleneck. Once it's seen in that light, chances are good that you're appreciated, or given greater flexibility, or all those other intangibles that are not explicitly spelled out.
The boss is coming to the employee for a solution, so that he/she can report to their boss that the problem is solved. I've gotten a lot of credit for helping my boss explain something to others in plain English. If you can phrase it in terms of, "here are the benefits, here are the risks" they can see it clearly and communicate the same to others.
The big problems that I see is when a DBA or developer spends too much time answering a question. Someone recently spent a long time answering the question, "how long will this take?" The answer should have been "less than 10 minutes, and I will let you know when it's done." More often than not, people don't want the details.
Long ago, I had a boss in Manhattan that would tell me that I have 2 minutes to make my point. Afterward, if he had any questions or needed more information, he would ask. That was one of the most valuable lessons I took away.
I realize I've been verbose here, but the stuff above has helped me a lot. Last point is: complain less, smile more. It's easier to be around you then.
January 26, 2011 at 1:47 pm
andre.quitta (1/26/2011)
A lot of the dumb answers come down to the employee not helping the manager. Someone a long time ago told me that his primary (and only) job function was to make his boss look good. Whether that's solving problems, closing tickets, having processes run better and especially never being a bottleneck. Once it's seen in that light, chances are good that you're appreciated, or given greater flexibility, or all those other intangibles that are not explicitly spelled out.The boss is coming to the employee for a solution, so that he/she can report to their boss that the problem is solved. I've gotten a lot of credit for helping my boss explain something to others in plain English. If you can phrase it in terms of, "here are the benefits, here are the risks" they can see it clearly and communicate the same to others.
The big problems that I see is when a DBA or developer spends too much time answering a question. Someone recently spent a long time answering the question, "how long will this take?" The answer should have been "less than 10 minutes, and I will let you know when it's done." More often than not, people don't want the details.
Long ago, I had a boss in Manhattan that would tell me that I have 2 minutes to make my point. Afterward, if he had any questions or needed more information, he would ask. That was one of the most valuable lessons I took away.
I realize I've been verbose here, but the stuff above has helped me a lot. Last point is: complain less, smile more. It's easier to be around you then.
Some good points but two big things influence what you just said one way or the other:
1. The bosses real agenda. It may not be what you might think it should be, or always is. He may be out for the VP slot and whether you are appreciated or not on a daily basis may not mean doodly squat to him. You might just be a ladder for him.
2. I wonder if you asked him to explain himself in two minutes or less whether you would get the same consideration? Production issues are not always about their attention level. Sometimes technical issues aren't something you just explain in a minute or two. Sometimes, you can, but it depends on what is involved. If any IT boss can't listen for more than 2 minutes about any production issue, maybe he should think about changing careers and go sell flowers for a living. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
January 26, 2011 at 1:55 pm
What you say has sometimes been my experience as well, but whether they're looking to move up or not is less important, unless it's to your detriment. Finding a boss that will throw you under the bus is ugly regardless. Then it becomes a matter of survival and politics. Then again, if they are looking to move up, the good and concise answer approach may make you a candidate for their position, as they move up.
As for the two minute rule, as a DBA I can start by saying, "the deploy didn't go out in this database; there was a problem with security and I've notified the parties." Very likely my boss will want more details but then I can delve down from there. The answers I give are not for my benefit, but for the person I'm speaking with, to get the information that they need.
January 26, 2011 at 1:58 pm
I forgot one statement:
"My way is the only right way. You're doing it wrong."
Whether that's true or not, there's a better way to phrase that. The most memorable time is when the developer said it and it turns out he WAS wrong. That one was good for a long time.
January 26, 2011 at 2:22 pm
Another one is "That's the way we've always done it"
I like the facebook friending of the boss excerpt from the linked article. Timing is everything and just before reading the editorial I came across this
What happens to the boss that denies the facebook friending?
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January 27, 2011 at 8:29 am
"You can't trust stuff you download, no matter what the Open Source crowd says."
I'm pretty sure that is EXACTLY what the open source crowd does say. It's why they are big on the source being open, so you can see exactly what you are getting.
January 27, 2011 at 8:40 am
Charles O'Halloran (1/27/2011)
"You can't trust stuff you download, no matter what the Open Source crowd says."I'm pretty sure that is EXACTLY what the open source crowd does say. It's why they are big on the source being open, so you can see exactly what you are getting.
If you have an open source project with 100,000 lines of source code, 100 developers known only by their email handle, and a new daily build each day, then all that transparency doesn't really matter much.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
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