To Which Experts Should You Listen?

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To Which Experts Should You Listen?

Steve Jones - SSC Editor

SSC Guru

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September 14, 2022 at 12:00 am

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Comments posted to this topic are about the item To Which Experts Should You Listen?
September 14, 2022 at 4:53 pm

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sean redmond SSCertifiable Points: 5817 More actions · Answer 1

As far as I see it, there are two points here: how much of an expert on the topic in question the presenter is and to what extent is the presenter spewing propaganda.

In short, experts know their stuff, they talk honestly, openly and leave nothing out. They have no problem telling the negatives as well as the positives. Marketing departments, on the other hand, generate propaganda.

If I go to a Microsoft event, I expect propaganda. With propaganda you will only get the positive spin and you need to go with a cynical mindset and try to find out what has been omitted or deceptively worded.

I far prefer the blogs of MVPs to anything I hear from a Microsoft person. Anna Hoffmann may know her Azure inside out but she doesn't get the respect from me that an MVP does, because what she produces is governed by Microsoft's marketing department.

dsor SSChasing Mays Points: 656 More actions · Answer 2

Personally I almost exclusively watch talks online, which has the added benefit of being able to skip the first and last 20% of it.

I couldn't care less about who the presenter is, the message they want to convey, or how to contact them afterwards. But I would like to hear what they actually have to say and hopefully learn something new in the process.

Grant Fritchey SSC Guru Points: 398693 More actions · Answer 3

I clearly have biases. When I'm not talking about a pure, non-Redgate, topic, in short, stuff that can be construed as marketing or sales, I just try to be incredibly up front about it. I'll even tell you what the competition is, just that I prefer my own stuff. However, this one is a fine line that is easy to cross. That said, I'm quite simply in favor of allowing vendors to do presentations. As that other article stated, sometimes, they are the subject matter experts, and you really should be listening to them, biased or not.

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt

Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning

larry.blake SSC Enthusiast Points: 186 More actions · Answer 4

Steve, I appreciate you not ending a sentence proposition with.

Seriously though, we wouldn't have so many great events if it weren't for the vendors. I've been to a number of SQL Saturdays and while I'm aware that they skew pro-Redgate, the alternative (no event) is a poor one. I will happily take that trade, and adjust my expectations.

Grant does a great job of presenting both Redgate and non-Redgate topics btw.

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1003863 More actions · Answer 5

dsor wrote:

Personally I almost exclusively watch talks online, which has the added benefit of being able to skip the first and last 20% of it.
I couldn't care less about who the presenter is, the message they want to convey, or how to contact them afterwards. But I would like to hear what they actually have to say and hopefully learn something new in the process.

Lordy, I hear ya. Some folks spend the first 12-15 minutes on "front-matter". Recorded sessions help fix that issue. "It Depends" on who is doing the presentation.

I try to not do such things. I also surprise people either during or after the Q'n'A (kinda like the out-takes at the end of the "Bugs" and other movies) that drive the points made home.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1003863 More actions · Answer 6

larry.blake wrote:

Steve, I appreciate you not ending a sentence proposition with.
Seriously though, we wouldn't have so many great events if it weren't for the vendors. I've been to a number of SQL Saturdays and while I'm aware that they skew pro-Redgate, the alternative (no event) is a poor one. I will happily take that trade, and adjust my expectations.
Grant does a great job of presenting both Redgate and non-Redgate topics btw.

Ditto that on all points

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Grant Fritchey SSC Guru Points: 398693 More actions · Answer 7

larry.blake wrote:

Grant does a great job of presenting both Redgate and non-Redgate topics btw.

Cheers!

Very kind of you to say. Could you share it with my boss? Ha!

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt

Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1003863 More actions · Answer 8

sean redmond wrote:

As far as I see it, there are two points here: how much of an expert on the topic in question the presenter is and to what extent is the presenter spewing propaganda.
In short, experts know their stuff, they talk honestly, openly and leave nothing out. They have no problem telling the negatives as well as the positives. Marketing departments, on the other hand, generate propaganda.
If I go to a Microsoft event, I expect propaganda. With propaganda you will only get the positive spin and you need to go with a cynical mindset and try to find out what has been omitted or deceptively worded.
I far prefer the blogs of MVPs to anything I hear from a Microsoft person. Anna Hoffmann may know her Azure inside out but she doesn't get the respect from me that an MVP does, because what she produces is governed by Microsoft's marketing department.

There are "mvps" and then there are MVPs. People forget that the MVP award is, just that, an award. It is NOT a certificate of knowledge, skill, or ability. It's a "service award" and many folks continue to get the award just based on the sheer number of posts they've made even if they're dead wrong in what they're writing.

The really big problem is based on something my Dad told me about books when I was a kid in the '50s...
"Half of all this is written is untrue and the other half is usually written in a manner that you can't tell".

I've seen many a "Holy Grail" article where it's a very well written article, includes code to generate test data, forms a hypothesis, logic discovery steps, and a conclusion, all using what appears to be a very scientific method... and still be completely incorrect. A good example of such a thing can be found in a lot of the string splitter articles that supposedly prove that an XML splitter is faster than things like DelimitedSplit8k.

The problem is that no one realizes that the test data in such "Holy Grail" articles is usually flawed. The reader just doesn't understand nor even recognize that frequent fault. The really bad part is that some those articles are written by long time "trusted" people are written by... MVPs. 🙁 And, unfortunately, the MS documentation is sometimes seriously flawed either directly or, worse, by omission of facts-from-the-field.

Don't get me wrong... there are many MVPs that are so smart about their area of award that they must have two brains. Others still haven't moved off the peak of Mt. Stupid.

My point is, it's not always easy to figure it out even from article to article and someone touting the label of "MVP" or other credential might not actually be correct in what they're saying.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1003863 More actions · Answer 9

Grant Fritchey wrote:

larry.blake wrote:
Grant does a great job of presenting both Redgate and non-Redgate topics btw.
Cheers!
Very kind of you to say. Could you share it with my boss? Ha!

You have the "habit of being correct" because of the research you do and you're not afraid to admit when you're not. So my answer to your question would be, "Absolutely and without hesitation... who's your boss"?

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

Grant Fritchey SSC Guru Points: 398693 More actions · Answer 10

Jeff Moden wrote:

Grant Fritchey wrote:
larry.blake wrote:
Grant does a great job of presenting both Redgate and non-Redgate topics btw.
Cheers!
Very kind of you to say. Could you share it with my boss? Ha!
You have the "habit of being correct" because of the research you do and you're not afraid to admit when you're not. So my answer to your question would be, "Absolutely and without hesitation... who's your boss"?

Oh, I'm kidding. Plus, you know me, I'll toot my own horn when I need to.

"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood"
- Theodore Roosevelt

Author of:
SQL Server Execution Plans
SQL Server Query Performance Tuning

Jeff Moden SSC Guru Points: 1003863 More actions · Answer 11

Grant Fritchey wrote:

Jeff Moden wrote:
Grant Fritchey wrote:
larry.blake wrote:
Grant does a great job of presenting both Redgate and non-Redgate topics btw.
Cheers!
Very kind of you to say. Could you share it with my boss? Ha!
You have the "habit of being correct" because of the research you do and you're not afraid to admit when you're not. So my answer to your question would be, "Absolutely and without hesitation... who's your boss"?
Oh, I'm kidding. Plus, you know me, I'll toot my own horn when I need to.

I kind of figured that would be your response. 😉 Had to take advantage of the opportunity to say "Thank you", again, for all that you do for us. I miss bumping into you between sessions at SQLSaturdays and at the "after" parties. Good times.

--Jeff Moden

RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a ROW... think, instead, of what you want to do to a COLUMN.

Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to Post Performance Problems
Create a Tally Function (fnTally)

larry.blake SSC Enthusiast Points: 186 More actions · Answer 12

(I'm pretty sure this is the deepest I've ever been in the nested quotes.)

larry.blake SSC Enthusiast Points: 186 More actions · Answer 13

Jeff Moden wrote:

Grant Fritchey wrote:
Jeff Moden wrote:
Grant Fritchey wrote:
larry.blake wrote:
Grant does a great job of presenting both Redgate and non-Redgate topics btw.
Cheers!
Very kind of you to say. Could you share it with my boss? Ha!
You have the "habit of being correct" because of the research you do and you're not afraid to admit when you're not. So my answer to your question would be, "Absolutely and without hesitation... who's your boss"?
Oh, I'm kidding. Plus, you know me, I'll toot my own horn when I need to.
I kind of figured that would be your response. 😉 Had to take advantage of the opportunity to say "Thank you", again, for all that you do for us. I miss bumping into you between sessions at SQLSaturdays and at the "after" parties. Good times.

(I'm pretty sure this is the deepest I've ever been in the nested quotes.)