December 19, 2012 at 8:42 am
I'm currently studying for the 70-461 - Querying SQL Server 2012 exam because the company I just started at needs to have us certified to retain their Microsoft Silver Certified Partner designation. Its kind of a "foot in the door" thing, to impress new customers, but its also about getting the SQL Server software cheaper.
However, I fully intend to get all three of the certifications eventually, on my own, regardless of it being required or not. I haven't done a lot of Reporting Services and BI work so studying for that exam will be a real challenge, which to me is the whole point. If you're not challenging yourself every day then you're going to stagnate. You also need to keep up to date with each new version. The exam itself is not the goal, but it is a good, objective measurement of where you're at.
And if you're half as good as you think you are, you shouldn't need to even study for it, just go ahead and write the exam. What are you afraid of? 😛
December 19, 2012 at 8:56 am
I am of that similar belief...just take the exam. If I fail, then I know I need to study.
- Chris
December 19, 2012 at 9:00 am
KGERBR (12/19/2012)
I'm currently studying for the 70-461 - Querying SQL Server 2012 exam because the company I just started at needs to have us certified to retain their Microsoft Silver Certified Partner designation. Its kind of a "foot in the door" thing, to impress new customers, but its also about getting the SQL Server software cheaper.However, I fully intend to get all three of the certifications eventually, on my own, regardless of it being required or not. I haven't done a lot of Reporting Services and BI work so studying for that exam will be a real challenge, which to me is the whole point. If you're not challenging yourself every day then you're going to stagnate. You also need to keep up to date with each new version. The exam itself is not the goal, but it is a good, objective measurement of where you're at.
And if you're half as good as you think you are, you shouldn't need to even study for it, just go ahead and write the exam. What are you afraid of? 😛
First off, I am not afraid of a test. Secondly, I have nothing to prove. A piece of paper is not going to prove/confirm my skill set to anyone anyway. My ability and expereince to do the job on a daily basis does. Thirdly, I don't need a test to be challenged, if you do then you need to re-evaluate your work ethic. I am challenged every day in my work... Also, the Microsoft Partner program has to do with Microsoft's "vested" interest I was referring to above. It has nothing to do with you improving your career. The Certification programs/tests are a "big easy" moneymaker for them. Never forget that fact. Finally, The exam is NOT a good, objective measurement of where you're at as long as they can be braindumped. 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
December 19, 2012 at 9:08 am
In general, certification mainly helps if you do not have a lot of experience. Once you have experience, people that are worth working for will focus on that.
December 19, 2012 at 9:58 am
In 1999 I decided that I wanted to improve my knowledge through structured learning i.e. through lessons not "playing" with technology. As I was fairly committed to the idea and would have to pay in some form I decided it mist be demonstrable on the CV. This boiled down to a choice of either certification or part time MSc.
I was working freelance (as I still do) and was asked to assist my client with recruitment. It turned out that there was a whole raft of people applying for work with certifications. Nearly all of whom really couldn't do the job they were claiming to be experts at. The client decided that he would not consider certification as a filter at all.
I decided then to do the MSc which gave be a better theoretical background which I could enhance with experience. For me this is the better combination; applicable technical knowledge together with sound experience.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 19, 2012 at 12:10 pm
You know I wish more managers\executives thought this way. It makes no sense to emphasize the cert but not the real-world experience - sometimes some of us are too busy WORKING and doing our jobs, with our knowledge and skillset we've gained over many years, to take a test just to show we have a cert.
December 19, 2012 at 2:09 pm
Chris Metzger (12/19/2012)
You know I wish more managers\executives thought this way. It makes no sense to emphasize the cert but not the real-world experience - sometimes some of us are too busy WORKING and doing our jobs, with our knowledge and skillset we've gained over many years, to take a test just to show we have a cert.
I agree, though I think often it's that they have no good way to judge people and this gives them something concrete.
December 19, 2012 at 4:50 pm
This is an eternal debate.
My own experience is that fresh out of uni with no work experience, I thought I was awesome but no-one would hire me because most were looking for 2 years experience. I swallowed my pride and worked a range of crappy jobs for a couple of years until I got a job in my field at the time (chemistry).
That suggests experience wins over qualifications but now that I have both I think that trumps either/or. The laboratory industry I used to work in hired people with short courses or even fresh out of high school, but those people were structurally limited in how far they could progress. Operating laboratory instruments didn't require a degree, but to do advanced analysis of results requires a fair amount of knowledge of theory, including organic chemistry, statistics & calculus. In Australia you are also required to be qualified before you can achieve certification as a signatory to the quality of drinking water or the safety of soil in schools. i.e. you can be unqualified to do most of the work, but you aren't allowed to do the double-checking.
That doesn't prove that education or certification is vital, merely that it's compulsory. I still have the opinion that I would prefer someone who also has in-depth knowledge of the potential complex chemical interactions that occur within drinking water beyond their day to day lab experience. The body of knowledge built up in the field mainly since the 1920's is not something you will learn on the job. Conversely if you don't have practical experience then I wouldn't trust you in the lab. Technique is hard to learn from a book or in class, it's better learnt though a master/apprentice style process.
Stepping back from that specific field, regardless of your opinion and principles, an HR/Recruiter without expertise in the recruitee's field will choose the person with both experience and qualification. (disclaimer - I now manage BI & Analytics at a very large recruitment company).
People often bring up examples like Richard Branson as proof that you don't need education to be successful, but that's mainly because stories of "qualified person becomes successful" are common, pretty boring and don't appeal to people looking for a reason to avoid studying. No doubt he also works very hard.
TL;DR
Order of hiring preference:
Someone with both
Someone with experience
Someone with qualification
December 19, 2012 at 8:35 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/19/2012)
Chris Metzger (12/19/2012)
You know I wish more managers\executives thought this way. It makes no sense to emphasize the cert but not the real-world experience - sometimes some of us are too busy WORKING and doing our jobs, with our knowledge and skillset we've gained over many years, to take a test just to show we have a cert.I agree, though I think often it's that they have no good way to judge people and this gives them something concrete.
I agree. Managers and recruiters like hard facts. Having a certification shows proof that they have studied the technology. It shows that they dedicated themselves to a task and succeeded. However, it does not prove retention of the information or the ability to apply it to real world scenarios. If the interview involves a technical questionnaire, then this will often give a better representation of the interviewee's knowledge depending on the questions. As long as the questions are relevant to the job at hand that is.
Certifications are sort of like college degrees. Just because you have one, it doesn't mean that you are truly more qualified to do the job than someone who only has experience. I, like most, have worked with a number of over-certified, over-educated individuals who seemed less competent than expected.
December 19, 2012 at 9:17 pm
KWymore (12/19/2012)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/19/2012)
Chris Metzger (12/19/2012)
You know I wish more managers\executives thought this way. It makes no sense to emphasize the cert but not the real-world experience - sometimes some of us are too busy WORKING and doing our jobs, with our knowledge and skillset we've gained over many years, to take a test just to show we have a cert.I agree, though I think often it's that they have no good way to judge people and this gives them something concrete.
I agree. Managers and recruiters like hard facts. Having a certification shows proof that they have studied the technology. It shows that they dedicated themselves to a task and succeeded. However, it does not prove retention of the information or the ability to apply it to real world scenarios. If the interview involves a technical questionnaire, then this will often give a better representation of the interviewee's knowledge depending on the questions. As long as the questions are relevant to the job at hand that is.
Certifications are sort of like college degrees. Just because you have one, it doesn't mean that you are truly more qualified to do the job than someone who only has experience. I, like most, have worked with a number of over-certified, over-educated individuals who seemed less competent than expected.
I agree on the college degree thing.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
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December 20, 2012 at 2:18 am
I generally welcome formal learning but I am cautious about individuals trophy hunting certification. I'm also wary of peoples cvs there is a tendency for people to exagerate both experience and qualifications I can see why an individual would use certification as a filter. I would do the same in a field I had little knowledge of.
Ultimately though I would seek to get people into employment on contract to see what they are like before offering more permanence. That way takes some of the guesswork away and hopefully I'll find the diamonds in the rough once they are through the door.
Interestingly on a forum like this I would rarely consider asking individuals their qualifications preferring to look at the quality of their technical responses with reference to the actual things which they have been working on. It should be noted that there is a trend for HR types and non HR types to use social networks (Linkedin , probably here and stack overflow) to target competent individuals (makes sense to me). I'm also quite cautious of companies that do all of their hiring through arms length HR organisations - Choosing your staff is one of the most important things and I think section managers should be completely focused on getting the right people.
I am quite disappointed when I read someone's cv and the reality is totally different. The usual thing is for some younger folk to fabricate their hobbies. Not sure exactly why. I once was eager to talk to a lad that had said he played the fiddle and windsurfed. Turned out he'd given up the fiddle ten years ago and tried windsurfing once on a summer holiday.
December 20, 2012 at 6:26 am
The same can be said about getting a college degree. I've worked my way up in IT by teaching myself and having a love for technology. It started out in 1992 building computers, something which was far more complicated with out all the pnp devices. I joined the Air Force and got out because I wanted to start a career in computers. As a veteran I qualified for a training course in A+ and Net+. A+ was a joke, but it was free. Sure, I felt like I could have taught the class, but getting it was still an accomplishment. The Net+ class was an eye opener. I instantly fell in love with networking. I opened a new horizon for me and a new level of understanding beyond just the PC.
After working some temp jobs, landing a job at Akamai, and then getting laid off in 2001 (pop), I started working as a pc tech at a small computer shop. This shop also did small business consulting. Within two years I was doing Network Administration, as much as I could teach myself (hours of setting up servers and services at home) and mimicking what I'd seen when working at Akamai. I was pretty successful and decided to back up my experiences with certifications and got my MCSE. I would say I was familiar with 80% of the content, but I learned a lot as well and it only made me a better Network Admin.
After 5 years of Network Administration, I decided to go back to school to learn software development. 3 years later as I completed my degree, a development job opened at work and I landed the job. It's been several years since...
I would definitely say the MCSE course prepared me more for Network Administration than my bachelors degree did for software development. We are a .Net shop and I've often considered working on some Microsoft Certs just to expand my knowledge of the platform.
At the end of the day, it really comes down to the person. If someone has no experience and just takes the test, then I would pound them in an interview to see if they really grasped the content. If someone came to me for a development job and barely graduated school with no experience, I wouldn't consider anything but an entry level position for them.
December 20, 2012 at 7:03 am
If you want to know what "trumps" what, take a look at a few dozen job postings on Monster or some such.
You'll find a few that require experience and education (5 years experience, Bachelor's degree in related field required).
You'll find a lot that have things like, "Bachelor's degree and 2 years, or equivalent experience".
You probably won't find a single one that has something like, "5 years experience or equivalent education".
That really says it all.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
December 20, 2012 at 7:56 am
(Disclaimer: I have a handful of MS certs)
I think that the whole certification thing really does boil down to a way for hiring managers to try to gain a quick yardstick of someones skills. A GSquared put it in his comment about looking at the job requirements on Monster.com and the like:
You probably won't find a single one that has something like, "5 years experience or equivalent education".
Does my having the certs mean I know the stuff inside and out? Oh H**L no! But that's also something a hiring manager can use. If they get two prospective hires, both with the same certs, both with equivalent experience, but one has the attitude of "I'm certified and I know ALL" and the other "I'm certified but there are things I'm not familiar with, and things I don't know," which do you think would be the better hire? Me, I'd say go with the person who acknowledges there are things they don't know.
It seems to me, that the exams (with one exception) for the certs don't go for in-depth, it's more a "cover the basics of everything." The exception would be the MCM, which based on what I've read, goes in-depth.
December 21, 2012 at 8:00 am
On the MCM, you are forgetting about one big thing. The cost:
•Nonrefundable program application fee: $125
•Program fee: $18,500 (three-week program in Redmond, WA)
•Non-lab exam retakes: $250 (Exam 88-970)
•Lab exam retakes: $1,500 (Exam 88-971)
Not to mention the 40-50% fail rate as well. Now you tell me if this is not about making money for Microsoft? 😀
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
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