August 15, 2014 at 8:22 am
It would be nice if more kids were exposed to what an IT career really is. My daughter took an Oracle class last year as a junior in HS. I was hoping she would get some in-depth use. I went to open house and the teacher went on about how much math they would have to use. I didn't correct her, but offered to come in and talk to the class about what an IT career was like. (I started with EDS about 30 years ago.)
Though she seemed enthusiastic, she never responded to my email about coming in to take to a class. And the whole semester, all they did were some simple entity relationship diagrams and never really used Oracle. Very disappointing.
Though I did talk my nephew into taking Comp Sci Engineering in college. He always was interested in puzzles and I told him that my jobs in IT have been mostly about solving puzzles. He loves it so far.
My 2 cents.
August 15, 2014 at 9:20 am
Andrew Kernodle (8/15/2014)
skeleton567 (8/15/2014)
Joe Garrick (8/15/2014)
With long hours the norm, downward pressure on wages, most skills being all but useless once they're just a few years old, and more and more work being sent offshore, I can't imagine why anyone would want to enter this field.Is that tongue-in-cheek or are you serious?
Well...
My roommate works for $12 an hour as the sole IT guy/developer/DBA/web designer for a local company. He puts in about 60 hours a week minimum, with more time than that if a critical project came up. At one point, he had a four-month project that required him to work 8 hours at work, come home, work until he went to bed, and repeat. Probably about 12-14 hours a day, for four months, weekends included, no overtime pay. Heck, no pay at all for the extra hours, since he's salaried (and yes, salaried pay at his level DOES demand overtime, but the company doesn't pay it. Yay illegality!).
He also doesn't get vacations, and is routinely chewed out for how "slow" his development processes are. Again, he's a one-man show; setting up an entire domain for a new company in two weeks, database and user tools and all, alone, should be commended! But nah, let's chew him out instead, because we have no idea how these things work, but we think it's easy to do.
The rest of the programming department at my current job is much the same; 50-60 hour work week minimums, usually a good bit of overtime, usually a good bit of work done remotely from home. No vacations (well, alright, they get vacation time, but they're not allowed to use it).
The sad part? This is pretty much regarded as the norm for IT in this part of the U.S. (the southeast). Granted, there's a few glittering oases around here that will actually treat their IT workers quite well, but most companies have no idea at all about technology, yet they decided to rush headlong into it. The result is that they treat their IT workers like common warehouse laborers (or worse).
Given that that's the case... Yes, why the heck would someone enter this field, at least in this area? It looks like a deathtrap of stress, rather than a good career move!
I do know that the situation for IT is quite a bit better elsewhere, but actually getting to those places, establishing yourself, and breaking out of the mire around here is quite difficult, if not impossible, with the resources you can gather here.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
August 15, 2014 at 9:27 am
I too am one of those people who came into IT through the side door...
I started out in High School being interested in architectural drafting, the computer bug bit when we had a chance to use a terminal that was hooked up to the Chrysler mainframe to access the Catia drafting application. But, it didn't bite hard enough to get me to switch majors.
I kept playing with computers during non-school (and during school) hours, and eventually went to work for a local computer parts / accessories mail-order catalog company. Went to work for my last employer (a medical practice management software company) and that's when things took off.
The problem with getting new blood into IT, as I see it, is that first, entry-level stuff is both boring, aggravating (ah, plug in my mouse!), and low-paid for often long hours. Add on top of that, the general implication that there's a lot of "maths" involved, and I think a lot of younger people get scared / turned off to the idea. It's one of those things that either you've got the bug, and you're willing to put up with the B.S. to get started, or you don't. People who come in thinking they're going to get $80k/yr to start and an office and 40 hour work weeks get disillusioned *REAL* fast, then complain, which scares off new people again...
Not sure how to fix that, though...
August 15, 2014 at 9:32 am
Andrew Kernodle (8/15/2014)
skeleton567 (8/15/2014)
Joe Garrick (8/15/2014)
With long hours the norm, downward pressure on wages, most skills being all but useless once they're just a few years old, and more and more work being sent offshore, I can't imagine why anyone would want to enter this field.Is that tongue-in-cheek or are you serious?
Well...
My roommate works for $12 an hour as the sole IT guy/developer/DBA/web designer for a local company. He puts in about 60 hours a week minimum, with more time than that if a critical project came up. He also doesn't get vacations, and is routinely chewed out for how "slow" his development processes are. Again, he's a one-man show; setting up an entire domain for a new company in two weeks, database and user tools and all, alone, should be commended! But nah, let's chew him out instead, because we have no idea how these things work, but we think it's easy to do.
The rest of the programming department at my current job is much the same; 50-60 hour work week minimums, usually a good bit of overtime, usually a good bit of work done remotely from home. No vacations (well, alright, they get vacation time, but they're not allowed to use it).
Given that that's the case... Yes, why the heck would someone enter this field, at least in this area? It looks like a deathtrap of stress, rather than a good career move!
I do know that the situation for IT is quite a bit better elsewhere, but actually getting to those places, establishing yourself, and breaking out of the mire around here is quite difficult, if not impossible, with the resources you can gather here.
Hang in there. There is hope, although hope alone is not going to do it for you. I worked for eight different companies over the years, and only relocated once. Went from starting salary of $650 a month to retiring with a meg in assets, two homes (TEMPORARILY, I hope), and a mountain cabin. Only advice I have is... always take care of yourself over and above the company. You have to do it yourself if you don't find that oasis company you spoke of. And as always, saving for your future has to be a top priority.
Rick
Disaster Recovery = Backup ( Backup ( Your Backup ) )
August 15, 2014 at 9:43 am
skeleton567 (8/15/2014)
Andrew Kernodle (8/15/2014)
skeleton567 (8/15/2014)
Joe Garrick (8/15/2014)
With long hours the norm, downward pressure on wages, most skills being all but useless once they're just a few years old, and more and more work being sent offshore, I can't imagine why anyone would want to enter this field.Is that tongue-in-cheek or are you serious?
Well...
My roommate works for $12 an hour as the sole IT guy/developer/DBA/web designer for a local company. He puts in about 60 hours a week minimum, with more time than that if a critical project came up. He also doesn't get vacations, and is routinely chewed out for how "slow" his development processes are. Again, he's a one-man show; setting up an entire domain for a new company in two weeks, database and user tools and all, alone, should be commended! But nah, let's chew him out instead, because we have no idea how these things work, but we think it's easy to do.
The rest of the programming department at my current job is much the same; 50-60 hour work week minimums, usually a good bit of overtime, usually a good bit of work done remotely from home. No vacations (well, alright, they get vacation time, but they're not allowed to use it).
Given that that's the case... Yes, why the heck would someone enter this field, at least in this area? It looks like a deathtrap of stress, rather than a good career move!
I do know that the situation for IT is quite a bit better elsewhere, but actually getting to those places, establishing yourself, and breaking out of the mire around here is quite difficult, if not impossible, with the resources you can gather here.
Hang in there. There is hope, although hope alone is not going to do it for you. I worked for eight different companies over the years, and only relocated once. Went from starting salary of $650 a month to retiring with a meg in assets, two homes (TEMPORARILY, I hope), and a mountain cabin. Only advice I have is... always take care of yourself over and above the company. You have to do it yourself if you don't find that oasis company you spoke of. And as always, saving for your future has to be a top priority.
Oh, definitely! Although things do look dismal here, I'm at least trying my best to claw my way up and out of the less-than-ideal current conditions I'm in. For me, at least, I'm in a position that's quite a bit better than the others I mentioned, but it's still a little rough on personal liberties.
More than that, though, I realized that the problems of not being able to escape this mire are solvable. I attended a user group meeting just this month, at one of the larger companies in the area, and the programmers there were VERY different from the ones I know. They had perspective, were happy about their jobs, and were knowledgeable.
I believe that, if the programmers here were better educated, and had more connections, getting somewhere better would be much more possible. Thanks to Steve mentioning it a month ago, I've decided to get involved with starting a PASS chapter here. I don't know how much of a difference I can make by doing this, but I can at least try to get some of the more downtrodden programmers in the area to somewhere better! Connections are the biggest part of moving up, and getting recruiters interested in this should definitely be beneficial for everyone.
- 😀
August 15, 2014 at 10:00 am
rshaw 91433 (8/15/2014)
It would be nice if more kids were exposed to what an IT career really is.
I've often wondered if other fields have training at that level that's so far removed from what the actual work is. Others have mentioned young people being told that there's a lot of math involved. Maybe the rest of you have had different experiences, but in two decades in IT work I've never needed anything more than a basic understanding of algebra, and even that only rarely.
What's difficult in this work isn't math (at least in software development), it's being able to get your head around working with very complex and completely abstract ideas. The skills of a librarian (sorting and filtering information) would be more valuable than those of a mathematician.
As for the math itself, I'm not sure which is more sad - that kids are being misled into thinking IT requires advanced math skills, or kids not liking math so much that they would avoid an entire industry due to the fear of needing it. Maybe we need new ways to teach math if people fear it that much.
August 15, 2014 at 10:02 am
I find it difficult to advise people to take IT as a career. I try and paint a truthful picture and explain the highs and lows. I also mention that employment experiences vary but I also say that is most likely true in most industries. However, I do say that you can get out as much as the effort you put in. It does take the personal choice to move on if your are being taken advantage of. People will regret it when you move on and you can only hope that they will decide to treat your replacement better.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
August 15, 2014 at 10:08 am
Joe Garrick (8/15/2014)
rshaw 91433 (8/15/2014)
It would be nice if more kids were exposed to what an IT career really is.I've often wondered if other fields have training at that level that's so far removed from what the actual work is. Others have mentioned young people being told that there's a lot of math involved. Maybe the rest of you have had different experiences, but in two decades in IT work I've never needed anything more than a basic understanding of algebra, and even that only rarely.
What's difficult in this work isn't math (at least in software development), it's being able to get your head around working with very complex and completely abstract ideas. The skills of a librarian (sorting and filtering information) would be more valuable than those of a mathematician.
As for the math itself, I'm not sure which is more sad - that kids are being misled into thinking IT requires advanced math skills, or kids not liking math so much that they would avoid an entire industry due to the fear of needing it. Maybe we need new ways to teach math if people fear it that much.
Entirely true! I'd also like to add that there's definitely something huge that isn't taught nearly enough (possibly at all?): People skills and connections!
I had the same foolish ideas that most soon-to-be graduates probably have as they near the end of their college terms; I'd get my degree, and it would be a shining beacon of competence on my resume. From there, I'd get hired by some company or another, and start my grand career in IT.
Nope. Not at all. Nobody wanted me. The logical connection kicked in eventually; I have a degree, but people want to be sure I know what I'm doing, and a degree doesn't imply that. If I knew someone in a company, whether it was an IT business or a recruiter's company, and I could demonstrate my skills to them, they could vouch for my abilities, therefore giving me credence in my field. Without that, though, my skills were just a hollow shell.
I don't think that's emphasized anywhere near enough in modern schools and colleges. I was never told any of this; I had to figure it out firsthand. Yet, once I did figure it out, it made perfect sense. After all, someone that works at driving your business should be able to prove that they can do so without massive failure, but bringing them in to see if they fail is usually too expensive a venture.
- 😀
August 15, 2014 at 10:23 am
I'd like to point out that during hiring many times I, and my peers, found too many people had a complete absence of knowledge on computing theory. I am not talking about theory used in research but that which is the basis of application. I am talking about normalisation, sorting, logic (a la De Marco's theorem), distributed computing, concurrency (deadlocks, race conditions, etc.), coding practices and so on.
In the last 20 years I have seen a trend towards knocking together (hacking in old terms) solutions that are not maintainable nor do they satisfy non-functional requirements.
You want a career in computing? Good because the rewards are there. But be prepared to constantly learn new technologies and practices as well as ensuring that you gain enough of an understanding of the theory to know why to choose what when you need to.
If you look at the best discussions here, for example, the best posters explain not only with experience but also can back it up with why.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
August 15, 2014 at 10:31 am
I would say that we need more of the right people, not more people. There are too many in technical positions that should not be, which hurts all of us. Our field is judged based upon how people perceive us, and the focus is typically on the worst examples. The same things happens with cops, the relatively few horrible ones out there hurt the reputation of all of them. Let's not work to increase the quantity of IT workers just to have more people.
Let's encourage kids, younger and older adults - that are qualified - to explore the field.
What do I mean by qualified? Well gender, age, religion, none of that has any bearing whatsoever. What does matter is having a logical mind, a solid math background, a willingness to tackle difficult issues, sometimes without support.
Creativity is beneficial in some technical fields like UI design and Web Design. However too many people who perform those roles are clueless when it comes to logic, which leads to a myriad of user interfaces that make no sense. For example, finding what you need on most web sites is an exercise in futility unless you use Google to search the site!
Our biggest hurdle is our schools. My son is entering HS this year, and will be required to take a computer course. Sounds good right? Not at all. He could have taught the course years ago, and is at risk to fail due to extreme boredom. Public schools are taxing us to death, and providing little value to our society, focusing on "feel good" subjects and idealism rather than solid science, math and reading comprehension. So many young adults are unqualified for technology because our schools set the bar too low. A previous post on SSC talked about how we need to write to an 8th grade level. How can we expect to find competent people given the "dumbing down" of public education.
This is going to be a long and hard battle, but if we all work at it from different angles, maybe we can encourage the right people to pursue a career in the field.
Dave
August 15, 2014 at 10:52 am
Andrew Kernodle (8/15/2014)
Joe Garrick (8/15/2014)
rshaw 91433 (8/15/2014)
It would be nice if more kids were exposed to what an IT career really is.I've often wondered if other fields have training at that level that's so far removed from what the actual work is...
Entirely true! I'd also like to add that there's definitely something huge that isn't taught nearly enough (possibly at all?): People skills and connections!
I've been involved in many decisions about new hires over the course of my career and have learned that the single most important question isn't "does this person have the right skill set," it's "can this person work well within our team."
It sounds like an HR cliche, but it's absolutely true. You can teach a person new skills, but you can't teach them a new personality.
August 15, 2014 at 10:54 am
I started my career in IT in 1992. I started at a time when networking was built around Novell, OS/2, UNIX, and the up and coming Microsoft Windows NT 3.51. DOS was a prerequisite as much as UNIX. I was exposed to education and real world experience in those disciplines as well as the application side of things. I personally enjoy the field I have chosen. I have found it mentally stimulating and challenging to me to exceed my limits and increase my growth potential. I have had discussions with my family so they can share in the buy-in necessary to find a balance, if not a compromise at times, and some understanding of the demands I must meet; these include the need to work long hours during emergency system needs as well as self-fund my education when necessary.
Two of my son-in-laws asked for advice in respect to the IT industry and I explained that the focus is specialization. The need to know "everything" isn't seen as doable because of the vast growth of knowledge necessary to have a single individual capable of holding all that knowledge. There may be some who say they can do all that, and that is great, but becoming an expert in one selective area is now becoming fact. And only the old-timers who came up in the 70s, 80s, and 90s may have that type of hands-on growth experience but they are also retiring or being retired based upon Executive profit versus expense decisions.
Having said that, this has also had the effect of how my children and their friends perceive the industry. My children have seen the demands and even in their 20s chose a different path which provides for more of the enjoyment of life the promise of technology had promised in the late 50s; do any of you remember, or have even seen, the illustrations with people lounging around in a park and the dialog of "... 20 hours of work for the income of 40, time to enjoy life due to more working getting accomplished in less time now that technology has given everyone the ability to have more leisure time ..." - ah the thought.
However, reality is that the CEOs have been working with the CFOs to increase profits, which is necessary and a fact. However, the truth became that if 40 hours can be pushed into 20 then 40 full hours a week should be able to double our profits. So, fast forward to the topic, yes we can provide a better life for our families, but the moments my daughters remember are the plays I missed and growth in their lives I had to struggle to be there for. The balance of their education costs with mine are reality as well.
The long and short is, if the Chief Executives do not support the need for full staffing and continued education then there will be a shortage of local IT staffing. While we can hire staff out of school, the industry, as someone noted early, has changed since 2000 and continued education is a reality on an exponential level. I personally read two to three books every two weeks to improve my knowledge. But my family does not have a TV and I have some time during the day set aside to do this thanks to my IT director. The other challenges are the need to have vendor contracts for closed systems, end-users not requiring on-going education for their application use, the request for simple help that could be avoided if there was application training within the company, oversees help desks being looked to for reduced costs, and the other things we all hear about and experience in our various companies. All those facts are seen by the executives as an extension of the question .. "With the IT experts we have on site why is that expense necessary?"
It is a business cultural concept and if there isn't an advocate for the IT department in the form of the IT CIO, Director, etc. then who will be the IT advocate? The other thing that has helped me is to become immersed in the business language as much as the technical language to translate into the business language for the executives. Until the Business Executives fully understand and support the needs of IT the lives we all lead will be transparent to our children who communicate their frustrations to their friends and further determine which type of work they may want to do for a living.
August 15, 2014 at 11:18 am
The worst career move I ever made was to support a legacy system. I supported it for three years, during which time I learned all about its obsolete technology and didn't learn anything current or new. This was a disaster. When the legacy support was over, I had no new skills. I got laid off and couldn't find a new job. I felt completely inadequate when applying for new jobs despite years and years of experience. I got a two-year degree and some certifications so that I could get a low-end job in a help desk. It has taken over 10 years to get fully back on track. Don't let this happen to you!
August 15, 2014 at 12:03 pm
I remember going to Cal Poly and finding out that the Computer Science major was impacted back in the 80's, and the counselor said why not try Math? I was like sure, I get 100's on my Math tests, but what can I do with Math? They said mostly becoming a teacher or rocket science type jobs, similar jobs as a Comp Sci majors, programming mostly. So that is where it all began for me, as my parents met at IBM, and it turns out my mother was a Math major too, but never told me until after I graduated! 🙂 She said she didn't want to influence my decision!
So I started out as a programmer for a big aerospace firm, generating reports mostly on big mainframes. Then we were notified of having access to a Cray, a parallel processor, I was like yeah, lets revamp these so they'll run in less than a day!! My boss thought I was a genius, as they ran in hours instead of days! I remember having to cover for someone in the printout room, helping folks solve there computer programming problems. We had access to all the big manuals that everyone hated, JCL, CLISTS, FORTRAN. I was able to solve other's problems way more easier than my own!! So that is when I started debugging more and programming less. They call me the bug finder now, and I've been testing for over 25 years!! And still love learning the new technologies that come thru!! 😎
August 15, 2014 at 12:14 pm
Alex Gay (8/15/2014)
When I was at school Computer Programmer wasn't even an available career path, and we had no structured Programming course. I remember that we did write a programme to solve quadratic equations in BBC Basic as part of our Maths course.Try as I might to get the "Careers advice software" to say Programmer the nearest I could get was Lab Technician. You would have thought that a piece of software written and tested by programmers would have at least included their own career choice!
I got into an entry level Deputy DBA job 13 years ago after learning how to use MS Access at my previous job. I have done software development and maintenance over the years, and you don't need a degree in Maths or Computer Science for it as was suggested at school, I did Chemistry. If you want to design microprocessors or write C compilers in assembler then I can see either of these being essential, let me know if I'm wrong.
I think your statement that you don't need a degree in Math or CS is something I would disagree with. Assuming that because your history allowed you to succeed, so all others could, isn't accurate. You succeeded because of who you are. Your Chemistry degree shows you have a scientific background, understand logical thinking, and therefore had it easier than others might have.
The reason for a CS degree is to see if you have what it takes. Those who fail at the degree will almost never make it in the field. Those who take other paths may succeed as well, but it won't be as clear cut. I know few communications majors who could work in the technical fields. Nurses and doctors are obviously intelligent, yet few of them have what it takes.
Dave
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