October 5, 2011 at 8:10 pm
codebyo (10/5/2011)
mendesm (10/5/2011)
Don't take this personally, but when a resume comes my way with "MCITP/MCTS" and other MS certifications I pass the resume on to the trash barrel.These days, the more certification people get, the more it seems they have memorized enough of some training manual in order to pass a test, but when the s**t hits the fan they're clueless on how to use all their certifications to fix the problem.
I disagree with you completely. That statement is a major generalization. I am one of those people that don't only study for certifications but I try to understand deeply what I'm studying. And I know a lot of guys who are not experienced but eager to learn as much as I do. I live in a small town that doesn't have big companies and the companies that do exist don't even know what DBA means. That doesn't stop me from trying.
So basically we're all doomed because we are not experienced. But isn't that how everyone starts? Nobody is born a DBA.
And above all, remember: we're all here on the SSC forums to learn and if someone has the courage to come here and express their feelings and he is an MCITP and you reject his resume because of a certification, you maybe be missing a great professional in the future.
No offense intended. But that's all too general to me. 🙂
Best regards,
Caro compatriota,
Yes, there were generalizations in there, but my point wasn't that if one is not qualified without experience, but rather that one can be very qualified, without experience, as long as they have a real understanding of the fundamentals of job (in this case SQL Server Administration and/or Development).
October 5, 2011 at 8:14 pm
IMHO you should start being curious about the dba side of your company even if it doesn't have a proper DBA. And as many have stated, some DBAs start out as developers and are assigned admins because of the company's needs.
I'm a system analyst and software developer at my company and I recently started analyzing performance, execution plans even without anyone asking to see if there was anything that could be improved.
Luckily I have found many stored procedures and views that were too slow and using some bad techniques that made our ERP system works very very unreliably.
Once you start understanding how to recover data, import/export, use the tools available, configure server options, etc. etc. you'll be more confindent to keep studying and learning new things.
Last week I have successfully analyzed the execution plan of a stored procedure that was taking 10 minutes to run and made it run in under 5 seconds with proper indexing, a better WHERE clause and all of those techniques we learn from such masters as Grant Fritchey.
So don't give up and keep studying. You'll be rewarded somehow. 🙂
GilaMonster (7/5/2011)
http://www.brentozar.com/archive/2009/04/how-to-get-a-junior-dba-job-part-1/
Thank you for that link.
Best regards,
Best regards,
Andre Guerreiro Neto
Database Analyst
http://www.softplan.com.br
MCITPx1/MCTSx2/MCSE/MCSA
October 5, 2011 at 8:16 pm
mendesm (10/5/2011)
Caro compatriota,
Yes, there were generalizations in there, but my point wasn't that if one is not qualified without experience, but rather that one can be very qualified, without experience, as long as they have a real understanding of the fundamentals of job (in this case SQL Server Administration and/or Development).
Sorry if I misunderstood your point then. 🙂
Best regards,
Best regards,
Andre Guerreiro Neto
Database Analyst
http://www.softplan.com.br
MCITPx1/MCTSx2/MCSE/MCSA
October 6, 2011 at 2:39 am
mendesm (10/5/2011)
Don't take this personally, but when a resume comes my way with "MCITP/MCTS" and other MS certifications I pass the resume on to the trash barrel.
So you wouldn't hire me simply because I have a certification? I'll just say 'your loss'. (not that I'd ever want to work anywhere that considered education to be a disadvantage)
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 6, 2011 at 7:48 am
mendesm (10/5/2011)
Don't take this personally, but when a resume comes my way with "MCITP/MCTS" and other MS certifications I pass the resume on to the trash barrel.These days, the more certification people get, the more it seems they have memorized enough of some training manual in order to pass a test, but when the s**t hits the fan they're clueless on how to use all their certifications to fix the problem.
. . .
Raw knowledge is a tool, and you're right that a tool is next to useless without experience. It would be sort of like a guy from the city attempting to hike through the Amazon jungle armed with nothing but the knowledge he acquired after watching 20 episodes of a survivor TV show.
However, many of the most experienced database professionals also hold certifications. I earned a MCSD certification more than a decade ago by self studying; it took about six months, but I consider it time well spent.
Also, when hiring an entry or intermediate level developer, it helps if they are certified, because it reduces the amount of upfront training the company has to provide them with. They know enough that I could start assigning them tasks and then supervise their progress.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
October 6, 2011 at 9:06 am
GilaMonster (10/6/2011)
mendesm (10/5/2011)
Don't take this personally, but when a resume comes my way with "MCITP/MCTS" and other MS certifications I pass the resume on to the trash barrel.So you wouldn't hire me simply because I have a certification? I'll just say 'your loss'. (not that I'd ever want to work anywhere that considered education to be a disadvantage)
No, that is not what I meant. But you having the certifications, wouldn't necessarily bring your resume to the top of my list of candidates to interview. The usual phone screening would very likely show whether you just had the certification because you memorized the stuff to the point of passing the tests or whether you actually know your stuff and the certification is a bonus.
I guess it would be worth it for me to clear my issues with the certification thing: I have time and again interview people who have the certification yet could not explain to me some very basic things about the inner workings of SQL Server, while other people who wouldn't bother getting the certification would have not problems having an intelligent hour long discussion on the very same subjects.
Edit: So to ME, the certification does not mean a whole lot when it comes to choosing a candidate for an interview. A cover letter from some of the more ingenious applicants sometimes is enough to tell me that he/she is worth taking 15 minutes to talk to on the phone because they pointed out one or two thing in the cover letter that leads me to believe that this person may not have 10 years under their belt, but probably is one of those guys that just might have "the gift" I'm looking for.
October 6, 2011 at 9:13 am
mendesm (10/6/2011)
GilaMonster (10/6/2011)
mendesm (10/5/2011)
Don't take this personally, but when a resume comes my way with "MCITP/MCTS" and other MS certifications I pass the resume on to the trash barrel.So you wouldn't hire me simply because I have a certification? I'll just say 'your loss'. (not that I'd ever want to work anywhere that considered education to be a disadvantage)
No. But you having the certifications, wouldn't necessarily bring your resume to the top of my list of candidates to interview. The usual phone screening would very likely show whether you just had the certification because you memorized the stuff to the point of passing the tests or whether you actually know your stuff and the certification is a bonus.
So which is it?
Any resume with a certification goes into the rubbish bin immediately (the initial statement)
A resume with certifications would be considered the same as one without and a phone interview would be done (the clarification)
Both can't be true.
If you're doing the former (throwing away any resume with certifications on) you're going to pass up on a lot of good people.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 6, 2011 at 9:26 am
GilaMonster
So which is it?
Any resume with a certification goes into the rubbish bin immediately (the initial statement)
A resume with certifications would be considered the same as one without and a phone interview would be done (the clarification)
Both can't be true.
If you're doing the former (throwing away any resume with certifications on) you're going to pass up on a lot of good people.
You're right, sometimes I do that when I write (the ADD wins sometimes)
I like finding little things in candidates' resumes.
I once chose to interview for a jr dba position because in the other interests section in this kids resume he listed, paraphrasing here, "take things apart to see how they work". He had very little sql server experience listed in his job history, but in the phone screening it became very clear that this kid lived and breathed all things sql server.
Another time I was one of the people that interviewed someone who needed SQL experience for a job, but not for a DBA or developer job. He had a ton of certifications, from Oracle, Microsoft to name a few, along with an impressive list of courses he'd taken over the years. He was fired 6 months after starting the job. He was brilliant! It became very clear a few weeks after hiring him that he belonged in a classroom somewhere, theorizing about the gazillion different ways of doing a simple task. He was 100% useless when it came to producing anything.
edit: I don't know how, but I screwed up the quote thing big time.
October 6, 2011 at 3:31 pm
Mr. Holio (7/6/2011)
You never worked as a DBA and looking for a junior position? In the meantime you are a MCTS and MCITP?!How did you do that?? I have around 2 yrs of experience (not much with 2K8 though) and could pass my MCTS few weeks back, and I was JUST above the limit 700 points!! Perhaps that's me who is doing something wrong ..
I am curious too.
Amol Naik
October 6, 2011 at 3:33 pm
mendesm (10/5/2011)
Don't take this personally, but when a resume comes my way with "MCITP/MCTS" and other MS certifications I pass the resume on to the trash barrel.
These days, the more certification people get, the more it seems they have memorized enough of some training manual in order to pass a test, but when the s**t hits the fan they're clueless on how to use all their certifications to fix the problem.
That has got to be one of the least useful management strategies I have ever read.
Your resume review policy is likely causing you to pass on the most qualified SQL DBAs and developers around your area.
In my experience there are 3 types of DBAs around:
a) Certification with no experience (least useful)
b) Experience with no certification (average)
c) Experience with certifications (above average)
The ones with experince and no certifications typically are the types who get silo'd and limited to just the basics.
This leads to a lack in broad understanding of areas of SQL Server outside their comfort zone.
Staying up to date, with MS certifications for SQL Server, exposes you to features that most people otherwise wouldn't use on a daily basis.
I would say it is fair to trash the resumes of people who are "paper MCTS/MCITP" similar to the criticism that came from the "paper MCSE" issues during 1999-2001.
But if a resume clearly has years of SQL Server experience and also has certifications on top of that, you are beyond foolish to reject those resumes simply because the person validated their experience.
The SQL Server MCM mandates having MCTS/MCITP for both DBAs and development skills.
Under your "trash certs" policy you would be passing on a MCM who could likely run circles around you.
It sounds like you are more scared of hiring someone who might know more than you and make you feel smaller.
That is a major problem I have observed over the years in IT tech interviews. Most techies are not qualified to perform a tech interview. They are too prone to use it as a chest thumping exercise to establish their "IT God" dominance over the potential new hire. The egos in most IT departments are not suitable for management or making hiring decisions.
October 6, 2011 at 6:56 pm
JamesMorrison (10/6/2011)
The ones with experince and no certifications typically are the types who get silo'd and limited to just the basics.This leads to a lack in broad understanding of areas of SQL Server outside their comfort zone.
IMHO, that's just as broad and incorrect as the statements you've condemned. Maybe we're just lucky but the two System DBA's we've hired in the last two years are absolutely remarkable both in their skill and WRT the "latest" knowledge. Neither carries any certs for SQL Server.
And, please... no one take that as me slamming certs. Done correctly, the study programs for certs are an incredible path to knowledge... but certs aren't the only path available.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 6, 2011 at 7:41 pm
Jeff Moden (10/6/2011)Done correctly, the study programs for certs are an incredible path to knowledge... but certs aren't the only path available.
Indeed. You're absolutely right.
There's something I'd like to ask though.
Since everyone is saying that a DBA they would hire is someone with enough experience, I'd like to ask people how someone that doesn't have any experience as DBA (but has more than 3 years in database development) is able to become one someday.
I know that there are many advices and they're all valuable but how should we start?
I'm asking this because I want to become a DBA someday but I'm not experienced but I study a lot and I like to see how things really work from the inside.
Certifications are not really valid for me or my ego. The only reason I took the tests was because I wanted to defy myself and that would make me study harder. 🙂
That being said it's being a joy to follow this topic with so many different points of view.
Best regards,
Best regards,
Andre Guerreiro Neto
Database Analyst
http://www.softplan.com.br
MCITPx1/MCTSx2/MCSE/MCSA
October 6, 2011 at 9:55 pm
codebyo (10/6/2011)
Jeff Moden (10/6/2011)Done correctly, the study programs for certs are an incredible path to knowledge... but certs aren't the only path available.
Indeed. You're absolutely right.
There's something I'd like to ask though.
Since everyone is saying that a DBA they would hire is someone with enough experience, I'd like to ask people how someone that doesn't have any experience as DBA (but has more than 3 years in database development) is able to become one someday.
I know that there are many advices and they're all valuable but how should we start?
I'm asking this because I want to become a DBA someday but I'm not experienced but I study a lot and I like to see how things really work from the inside.
Certifications are not really valid for me or my ego. The only reason I took the tests was because I wanted to defy myself and that would make me study harder. 🙂
That being said it's being a joy to follow this topic with so many different points of view.
Best regards,
Gosh... there's a post out there that tells how to do this quite nicely. Maybe by Brent Ozar?
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 6, 2011 at 9:57 pm
Ah... yeah... found it...
http://www.brentozar.com/sql/becoming-a-dba/
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 7, 2011 at 5:11 am
Jeff Moden (10/6/2011)
Ah... yeah... found it...
That's brilliant! Thank you.
Bookmarked. 🙂
Best regards,
Best regards,
Andre Guerreiro Neto
Database Analyst
http://www.softplan.com.br
MCITPx1/MCTSx2/MCSE/MCSA
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