May 14, 2012 at 9:38 am
Greg Edwards-268690 (5/14/2012)
Many times slowing down a bit makes more real progress.
For sure.
May 14, 2012 at 9:38 am
Revenant (5/14/2012)
Thanks, Steve -- I got good laugh out of this.I am 65 and still have lots of fun learning new stuff and keeping my edge sharp.
Read some of the comments from the articles. They're rather amusing to me.
May 14, 2012 at 9:40 am
My experience has been very different than the research that was described in the Bloomberg article. I’ve found in younger years, you’ve graduated from college, you have had a few jobs, but you are still going through the SCHOOL OF HARD NOTS
The SCHOOL OF HARD NOTS has several required classes:
“Beat your head against the wall on code and systems that don’t work as described”
“Putting out self-caused fires”
“Recycling and repackaging old ideas and calling them new ideas”
“Your system is unstable, by your design”
“Burning the midnight oil, because you were trying to figure things out during the day”
About 20 years after you graduate from college, you graduate from the SCHOOL OF HARD NOTS with your Bachelor’s degree. By now, you figure your what "NOT" to do. Now, you find that you do many things right the first time. You’ve seen several generations of software and systems, so you know how good systems are built. You’ve seen ideas go in cycles and repackaged, so you can make educated guesses on what will happen next. Additionally, I have found that employers pay more for the SCHOOL OF HARD NOTS. Now, for your Master’s Degree in the SCHOOL OF YOU HAVE SO MUCH MORE TO LEARN :-)?
May 14, 2012 at 9:59 am
I moved into management a while back. I still lead projects and I try to stay up on the technology side but it gets harder and harder each year to juggle the competing priorities.
Many times, I have wished that I had stayed on the technical side -- it appeals to me and I get a much better feeling of completion from moving a sublime piece of code to production than I do in accurately forecasting our financials (read: I hate doing financials).
My next job will be more technical, even if I have to go back to school and start over. You guys are worrying me though, that I might not be able to get a job due to my age.
Regards,
Joe
May 14, 2012 at 10:03 am
Joe Johnson-482549 (5/14/2012)
I moved into management a while back. I still lead projects and I try to stay up on the technology side but it gets harder and harder each year to juggle the competing priorities.Many times, I have wished that I had stayed on the technical side -- it appeals to me and I get a much better feeling of completion from moving a sublime piece of code to production than I do in accurately forecasting our financials (read: I hate doing financials).
My next job will be more technical, even if I have to go back to school and start over. You guys are worrying me though, that I might not be able to get a job due to my age.
Regards,
Joe
I think you can move back. Have a talk with your manager, and look for a job inside the company. It might take time, but if it's a good company, they'll help you move back.
Having moved in and out of tech, I think you might be surprised how quickly you pick things up. Much technology hasn't changed; it's mostly syntactical changes in moving to a new language.
I think the age fears are overblown a bit. There are issues with some startups or companies that are developing technology. Companies like Facebook seem to have a bias towards younger programmers, but I think plenty of companies that work in other industries don't quite feel the same way. A lot of it, IMHO, is how you present yourself.
May 14, 2012 at 11:25 am
If you equate software engineering with programming, then the argument presented in this article might have some validity. Software engineering, however, encompasses far more than programming (think software life cycle from concept through end-of-life) and experience is definitely an advantage.
May 14, 2012 at 1:25 pm
I wish to throw in my 2-cents' worth to the conversation. I am one week away from reaching 51 years of age, and I am still doing very well as a programmer. Yes, there are companies throwing out the old and experienced, following up with new hires direct out of college, but not all of them do this. I have also seen some companies reap their experienced staff, only to rehire many of them a few years later when they find themselves in trouble.
I paid a lot of dues to get to this point in my career -- writing code for a decent salary. I can program efficiently in Java, VB, C (and its variants), Pascal, and 65C02 assembler (when I was an Apple geek). I had one job where I was a manager, but I decided back then that it would be my last. I really like programming, and I approach software like it was a block of marble I can sculpt. It's what I do. No matter the challenge, I have a lot of fun at work.
I suspect that the Bloomberg article has a hidden agenda. Well, at least the old and crotchety part of me thinks so. 🙂 Sometimes, the people who provide the journalists their source material see things from such a great height, they cannot see what supports them. From many CEO perspectives, the money speaks loudest, and that drives them to hire cheap labor. Oh, when will they ever learn?
May 14, 2012 at 1:42 pm
Can you imagine someone saying that Meryl Streep is a bad actress because if she were a good actress she would no longer be acting at this stage of her career but instead would have been promoted to senior management at 20th century Fox or some other production company?
That sounds absurd, doesn't it? then why does that twisted line of reasoning seem justified for a software engineer?
May 14, 2012 at 1:50 pm
This is an excellent editorial! I've worked for a few companies where the corporate philosophy was that all of their employees were either moving up or moving out. I totally disagree with this philosphy. If an employee is productive and happy in their present position, then why not let them continue to excel in the position that makes them happy instead of attempting to pigeon-hole them in a position that they may have no interest in. I've seen a number of situations where the careers of brilliant engineers (software and otherwise) were effectively ruined when these individuals were promoted into management positions.
Over 20 years ago, I resigned a fairly lucrative management position with Sony Corporation in order to return to school, pursue a degree in Computer Science, and make a career change. Although I'm no longer in management, I certainly don't feel that I'm a failure in my career. I'll turn 51 later this week, I'm making good money and have a fairly secure job, and when it comes to SQL Server I'm running circles around all of the other developers in my organization.
May 14, 2012 at 1:55 pm
levynissim (5/14/2012)
Can you imagine someone saying that Meryl Streep is a bad actress because if she were a good actress she would no longer be acting at this stage of her career but instead would have been promoted to senior management at 20th century Fox or some other production company?That sounds absurd, doesn't it? then why does that twisted line of reasoning seem justified for a software engineer?
It has historical reasons. Guys who stroke it really big -- Bill Gates, Larry Ellison, Steve Jobs, the list could continue -- were young when they got their careers going. They were then hiring young guys -- not because of age bias, but because talented, experienced middle-aged guys were working for say IBM, had young families and could not afford to take the risk of working for a start-up.
As IBM with their early middle-aged engineers declined and startups with young, ambitious relative newbies became all the rage, it created the wrong impression that it was not being in the right spot at the right time but their young age that made the difference.
May 14, 2012 at 4:51 pm
levynissim (5/14/2012)
Can you imagine someone saying that Meryl Streep is a bad actress because if she were a good actress she would no longer be acting at this stage of her career but instead would have been promoted to senior management at 20th century Fox or some other production company?
Sorry, I can't let that one pass. Ms. Streep is a super-powered exception. Many, many very good actresses are *not* working at her age, because of age bias. 😉 Bad analogy, my friend...
Getting back to the point of the discussion and the post, though I want to add my thanks to the chorus here. Thanks, Steve.
FWIW I'm 57, and two years ago I chose to move *back* from management to being a hands-on developer again. I'm doing something where I feel more needed, and where I get to be more creative.
Meanwhile, the team I managed has had trouble retaining people after I left -- after a sterling record and team growth for the three years I was there. They're still all in touch with me for mentoring and general support of their development paths, no matter where they have landed. This tells me (a) I honestly don't think I could have failed at being a manager and (b) I don't have to miss the good parts of my old role, I still have the best parts of it.
>L<
May 14, 2012 at 5:28 pm
You are completely going off on a tangent. Please stay on topic. I was not discussing how Hollywood is treating actresses as they age. I was merely showing that just as aging actors and actresses that are still acting are not looked down upon because they have not moved on to management roles in the movie industry, aging software developers should similarly not be looked down upon.
Please analyze people's comments more logically in the future before you criticize someone on this or any other discussion forum.
May 14, 2012 at 5:31 pm
I thought the parallel with Mrs. Streep from levynissim was pretty good. We don't think that experienced people in many industries are worse than younger people or worth less.
May 14, 2012 at 5:42 pm
Thanks for the support 😀
May 14, 2012 at 5:48 pm
To Revenant
You've made excellent points. I've never thougt of it this way. Very impressive analysis!
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