August 7, 2009 at 9:23 am
Anything over 40 hours I'm "asked" to work gets compensated, either as Over Time or Comp Time. I usually have my choice, and depending on the amount of hours involved, Comp Time, thought 1 for 1, is a better deal then the 1 for 1.5 of OT because there is a MAX pay per pay period that by law can not be exceeded (anything over 8 hrs per week puts me over the top). Additionaly if I can't use up the Comp Time in 6 months from earning it, it automatically converts to regular pay.
I often will put in an hour or more of extra work several times a week just because I'm on a roll or pushing to get something done, but that is my choice and I don't expect anything for it, and I'm never "expected" to give extra. I believe I'm amply compensated for my "regular" time that the extra hours don't concern me at all. Still I appreciate the "pat on the back" I often get from my manager for the extra effort and I'm pretty sure his appreciation is reflected in my yearly bonus (though I don't know for sure how much anyone else gets in bonuses, still I've never been disapointed with mine).
Additonally, managers at my level have the authority to approve up to 59 minutes of early dismissal at their descretion and I've never had a problem when I need to cut out early for an appointment with getting approval to leave early.
All in all I'm extremely satisfied with my current employment and employer.
James.
August 7, 2009 at 9:40 am
The job I have now, working for county government, is the first time I have ever been offered anything for overtime. We accrue comp time at time and 1/2 for time worked beyond the standard 37 &1/2 hour work week. I am permitted to have flexible hours when off-hour processing is required, but sometimes my busy schedule is not that accomodating and my boss trusts me to make that decision based on my workload for that day. What is great is that even though I am in a supervisory position, the comp time rule applies to everyone! How about that? Of course, that could change at any time, but I really like getting an extra 2-3 weeks of vacation per year (I only get 2 weeks plus 12 paid holidays and one free personal day). Of course there is a catch. I make less money than my corporate counterparts. Nothing in life is free-you just need to know which compromises you are willing to make. I am trading my $$ for time, plus the 6 mile commute to work doesn't hurt.....
August 7, 2009 at 9:44 am
Other than as a billable consultant, I haven't worked anyplace where this was formalized and normal work hours were counted like beans in 20 years, nor would I ever want to. Vacation and sick days only came into play when the time off extended beyond a day or so, and only when it was likely to impact others... I hated being "on the clock" as an hourly worker and got a different kind of gig as soon as I could.
I prefer to be directly billable, since that makes for easier time off conversations: "I'm not going to be here for a couple days and it's not costing you anything..." That's one of the things I miss about being a field consultant.
As a billable consultant, the most humorous calling on the carpet that I ever had was with a PM (for the consulting company that employed me prior to Microsoft). He yelled @ me over the phone for working more than 40 billable hours per week. The client had authorized it, and was very happy that I was willing to spend some extra work time in Arkansas... but apparently the PM couldn't figure out how to adjust his Microsoft Project plan for more than 8 hours a day and 40 hours a week. Three cheers for glorified accountants with fancy titles. :w00t:
I've been blessed that I've usually been able to chose places where commitments and accomplishments were valued. If you meet your commitments, show up for scheduled stuff and get your work done when you said you would, how many hours it takes (and when/where those hours are spent) should be irrelevant, IMO. I pray that I'll always have the luxury to continue to choose places like that.
August 7, 2009 at 9:53 am
My first job let us have comp time, but we also didn't fill out timecards or anything. If you were salaried, you were expected to work 40 hours/week. To hear our manager talk, it was more like 50, but our supervisor would have none of that and if we put in extra time he'd make sure we got our time back. None of it was official.
My current job makes us fill out timecards even if we're salaried. We fudge comp time for ourselves by taking hours of overtime that we work one day and putting it on the timecard for the next so we look like we've worked 9 or so hours each day instead of 11 one day and 7.25 the next. As long as the work gets done, I don't see that it matters if you need to put in three hours from home after work one day and take off a little early the next so you can run the errands that you couldn't do when you were working the night before. Most of the salaried part of our department is a bunch of workaholics so 9-10 hours a day is pretty normal and I don't think any of us takes back as much extra time as we give the company.
I burned out really badly a few years ago, working too many weekends and holidays due to some major projects that I was heavily involved in, and too many very late nights because of a memory leak that kept choking one of our servers and took a long time to find and patch. And no comped time for any of it. Since then, I've been doing my best to make sure that I don't work the kind of hours that would be detrimental to my health (physical or mental). It makes the comp time a bit less of an issue, but ohhhh it's hard to say "no" sometimes when you're up to your eyeballs in a project.
Jennifer Levy (@iffermonster)
August 7, 2009 at 9:59 am
When I worked for the government I got comp time for any extra hours. This worked out nice as I could add an extra day or two to my vacations. Where I currently work it is kind of an unofficial policy that gives me time off for the overtime hours. I like this as I feel that time off is just as important as extra money.
August 7, 2009 at 10:23 am
I consider myself fortunate and treated fairly. I'm effectively on-call 24-7. The last time I was truely off-work was 1999 while in Europe. Ironically, I leave today for a remote location in Montana where there will be little connection to the outside world. So that's 10 years. I have worked from sandy beaches in the Carribean, and snowy ski slopes in the West.
I often work from home and pull all-nighters on weekends. But I then I stay home on Mondays, and I never show-up at the office before 10am. Actually, I have more processing power and a larger desk at home than at work. After 15 years at the same company I manage myself, more or less. I have a boss like everyone, but my bosses have come and gone - I have stayed. Even the company president has changed 3 times.
I live in Florida and have even worked in the aftermath of a Hurricane, with the office in ruins.
Yes, it's crazy. But it's the nature of beast. As they say on Broadway, the show must go on!
August 7, 2009 at 10:36 am
Having worked in IT since 1971, I've give this matter quite some thought. I suppose now I have different perspectives on what is important in life, especially since having had a triple bypass in 2005.
I believe almost all of us have the balance between work and home entirely wrong. My willingness to work overtime is in direct proportion to my perception of my employer's willingness for me to work equal amounts of undertime - pretty well not at all!
How did we ever allow ourselves to get to the situation where so many companies demand and expect overtime as a right? It's a complete nonsense! We live in an age where increasingly individual rights are subsumed by companies the world over. Here in Australia, the recent and unlamented conservative government managed to enact a little-known law where individuals can be successfully sued by a company for causing that company material damage to its business when individuals are successful in persuading the population at large not to buy a given product because of a history of faults or environmental damage.
Why should the relationship between individuals and companies be so heavily tilted towards the company? Look at the divorce rate. Look at domestic violence. Look at suicide rates. All of these are, to a greater or lesser extent, affected by our over-weaning and sadly misplaced allegiance to our employer.
If we are lucky enough to enjoy our work (and I suspect that the IT industry is particularly lucky in this respect), all well and good. For most of my working life I have run my own contracting business and have found it satisfying and rewarding. I wouldn't do it now as the stress is not worth it.
IMHO, working (unpaid) overtime on a regular basis because it's expected or required is folly and madness.
August 7, 2009 at 10:41 am
At both companies I have worked for, its always been the motto if you work extra/off hours, you will get time off another time. Either leaving a half day here or there, or getting unscheduled time off. Honestly I like the unscheduled time off as it gives me the flexibility to go to the doctors, take certification exams etc on the days and times I usually need. Getting paid extra would off course be nice but I am not sure I could give up the flex time i have enjoyed for the last 7 years.
Steve
August 7, 2009 at 10:59 am
UAMCRay (8/7/2009)
I consider myself fortunate and treated fairly. I'm effectively on-call 24-7. The last time I was truely off-work was 1999 while in Europe.
As long as you know what is expected and are fine with it, as you obviously are. I was in a similiar position 15 years ago. I was a Federal Law Enforcment Agent which took me all over the world for weeks/months at a time and when home was on call 24/7. I did that for about 13 years which was more than enough. It was exciting and rewarding work and I'm glad I had that opportunity, but now I'm happy working 8 to 4:30 and doing overtime only when I choose, because I want to. I'm well satisfied working at a job with very little excitement and a nice leisurely boring daily commute. "Viva La Predictabiltiy"
August 7, 2009 at 11:37 am
Paul Thornett (8/7/2009)
IMHO, working (unpaid) overtime on a regular basis because it's expected or required is folly and madness.
I couldn't agree more. One company I worked at previously though nothing of me working until 4am on a problem. I called in to say that I wouldn't be in until 10am though I did show up at 9am. It didn't matter because I got chewed out for not arriving promptly for work at 8am!
Companies that watch the clock like that will cause the employees to watch the clock as well. When something comes up and it's quitting time, then they're out the door and it will have to wait until the next day. After all, why should the employee be flexible when the company is not?
Besides, I've driven myself to mental and physical exhaustion working overtime on projects without any additional consideration or compensation. I'll not do that again!! I've since learned that I work to live, not live to work!
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August 7, 2009 at 12:11 pm
Aaron N. Cutshall (8/7/2009)
Paul Thornett (8/7/2009)
IMHO, working (unpaid) overtime on a regular basis because it's expected or required is folly and madness.I couldn't agree more. One company I worked at previously though nothing of me working until 4am on a problem. I called in to say that I wouldn't be in until 10am though I did show up at 9am. It didn't matter because I got chewed out for not arriving promptly for work at 8am! ....
I haven't ever run into that, but I've known managers who thought that way.
If anyone ever tried to chew me out that way, he'd be talking to empty air in about 3 seconds or less, as I went to speak to his boss about the issue. If no joy there, on up the food chain or out the door. (And yes, I've done that in similar enough situations. It works.)
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August 7, 2009 at 12:23 pm
At my current job I can get overtime or comp time, no problem. I work for a non-profit and mostly it is an 8 - 5 job, and since i live 8 miles away I can ride my bicycle most days. Much more relaxed than my last job.
I worked 20 years in the U.S. military and 60 - 80 hour weeks were common. No overtime pay and comp time was rare. Just part of the job. But I was a young man then and it wasn't so bad.
Now i relish my family, community involvement, bicycling time and try not to stress so much at work.
August 7, 2009 at 12:28 pm
Aaron N. Cutshall (8/7/2009)
Besides, I've driven myself to mental and physical exhaustion working overtime on projects without any additional consideration or compensation. I'll not do that again!! I've since learned that I work to live, not live to work!
Yes, yes, a thousand times yes. There are limits past which I will not go when I work. My health and sanity are worth much more to me than my job for the simple reason that if I don't have either of the former, I won't be able to do the latter. If companies run their employees into the ground, the employees won't be able to work competently, and in addition to hurting the employees, it will hurt the company.
Jennifer Levy (@iffermonster)
August 7, 2009 at 12:44 pm
I don't have a lot to say here, but I will add that I've been in IT for about 20 years now. I've always dedicated significantly more than 40 hours per week, in general, but I expect to have a little slack on the weeks when I don't/can't.
My prior work experience is much like Steve's -- some companies compensated (at least while they were viable), some didn't. Currently, I work from home, so it seems my work day never ends. However, I'm virtually never compensated for that time, though I wish it was a clearer issue.
But, the entire reason I'm even posting here is that I was in the U.S. Army many moons ago, and, even before I was deployed to Iraq, I was effectively on duty 24/7. I was lucky if I made US $1000 per month! So, I think anyone complaining needs to review their prioritites. Not that you're wrong, like I said, I still "want more", but I always think back to my Army days, and am grateful I can watch an episode of the "The Wire" or "Deadwood" or "Battlestar Galactica" at lunch. And I "seldom" get shot at in my current line of work...
At the same time, if I wasn't so old, I'd gladly take the place of one of the "kids" that is over there now.
August 7, 2009 at 2:24 pm
I always make it a point to discuss the overtime issue(s) (amount of O.T. expected by the employer, compensation, nights/weekends/ holidays, etc.) at the point of hire. However, I don't mind working up to about 4 hours of unpaid ovetime per week as long as the conditions are reasonable and I'm doing something to further my career. Why 4 hours you might ask? Well 4 hours is 10% of a 40 hour work week. Most employers would be estatic to increase their profit margins by 10%, so I consider the 10% to be a gift and feel that it would be unreasonable for any employer to expect any employee to consistently work more than about an extra 4 hours per week as uncompensated time, particularly when most employers rarely grant a pay increase that exceeds 10%.
I hope that I don't strike a nerve with anyone on this, but the bible considers 10% to be a standard of giving or tithe, and I feel that it is totally unreasonable for any employer to expect to receive more than God expects to receive.
All in all, the relationship should be treated as a partnership simliar to a marriage with give and take by both parties and with a mutual spirit of fairness.
Lastly, I've always viewed myself and my personal time as the assets of my own corporation (Mad Hacker, Inc.). Most corportions don't give away their prized assests on a regular bassis and neither do I.
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