May 26, 2008 at 8:49 pm
Heh... "I sense a disturbance in the force..." 😛
Barry is absolutely correct... he and I both just went through a couple of such posts just this weekend alone... user posts 20 - 50 lines of unformatted garbage code without any table info or test data and simply says "I get an error on this."
You want us to spend a little time to help... spend a little time helping yourself. Do like the article says and like what Barry just said... Provide the code to create a table, fill it with some test data, describe the problem, and include (copy) any and all errors you may be getting (all the errors). If you're using variables in the code, please be sure to include the declarations for the variables, as well.
Thanks in advance...
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 27, 2008 at 12:21 am
rbarryyoung (5/26/2008)
My Pet Peeve:Posters who say "...this returns an error." or "...this doesn't work."
People; PLEASE do not leave it at this, give us ALL of the relevant information! If it doesn't work, tell us what it does (and what it should do)! And if it returns an error, for heaven's sake, tell us what the error is!
2nded. My telepathy's not that good over long distance. 😀
I need a holiday, there are a number of things that are irritating at the moment
SQL 200 related posts in the 2005 forums, where you only find out it's sQL 2000 several posts down.
People that you ask 4 or 5 times to give some info and if they do give it, it's a fragment of what you need. I'm not asking for schema and sample data so I can sell it to your competitiors. I'm asking for it because I need it to help solve your problem.
The best is one I got as a PM (and promptly deleted) It was sent on friday, asked a question, gave some data and them the poster said he 'expected' an answer monday morning before 10am.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 27, 2008 at 6:05 am
GilaMonster (5/27/2008)
The best is one I got as a PM (and promptly deleted) It was sent on friday, asked a question, gave some data and them the poster said he 'expected' an answer monday morning before 10am.
Must be the language barrier, huh? Or, maybe just arrogance :hehe: Have run into a few of those myself... and I handle them about the same way.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 27, 2008 at 6:18 am
Jeff Moden (5/27/2008)
Must be the language barrier, huh?
I would hope so. Though I have a feeling some people think we work for SSC and get paid to answer questions. :crazy: :hehe:
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 27, 2008 at 7:54 am
GilaMonster (5/27/2008)
The best is one I got as a PM (and promptly deleted) It was sent on friday, asked a question, gave some data and them the poster said he 'expected' an answer monday morning before 10am.
Heh. Here's hoping it wasn't your boss!
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
May 27, 2008 at 5:17 pm
I'll admit to doing that once (right Jeff). But I was soliciting some ideas and didn't put a deadline on a response. I was stymied on a production issue with PeopleSoft, and previous posts didn't help me. Jeff's questions, however, made me think of what we had done, and helped greatly in identifying several potential avenues we hadn't previously explored.
This isn't something I'd do on a regular basis. Normally, posting a request for help to the general community is the best way to go.
😎
May 27, 2008 at 7:03 pm
There are exceptions, especially amongst friends. But some of these folks' arrogance is just beyond me... like I said, it must just be a difference in language because some of these folks come off like you're working for them personally.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 27, 2008 at 8:07 pm
I've been doing it for thirty years, but it still suprises me how hard some folks make it to help them.
[font="Times New Roman"]-- RBarryYoung[/font], [font="Times New Roman"] (302)375-0451[/font] blog: MovingSQL.com, Twitter: @RBarryYoung[font="Arial Black"]
Proactive Performance Solutions, Inc. [/font][font="Verdana"] "Performance is our middle name."[/font]
May 27, 2008 at 11:16 pm
I think they are afraid that the answer is so obvious that they try to hide what they are really asking. I call the Forest and Trees syndrome. You can't see the forest because of the trees. Years ago I worked as a Program Advisor at UCCS. I saw students working hard on assignments for hours. They would finally come ask for help, we'd (who ever was on duty) would look at thier code and in a matter of moments usually spot the problem and show it to them. Lights come on and everything.
People coming to ask for help need to realize, we aren't here to ridicule them or shame them. Most of us want to help. Sometimes that doesn't mean giving them the answer, some times it's pointing them in the right direction.
Perhaps we provide all the code they need; sometimes it is just a starting point and they need to modify it to meet their specific needs (especially true when they give us "examples" of what they are trying to do, but not really what they asr doing!).
Sometimes we just ask more questions and suggest different things without giving any code. It really depends on what is being asked and if we think it is actually work relates or homework. I do appreciate those that are up front with that unlike those that try to hide the fact.
I do wish those who post questions asking for help on queries and such would provide nicely formatted code, table DDL, and sample data (in insertable format) so we don't have format the code, fake the tables, make up or even format the data for inserting, etc. Some of us do try to help during down times at work (breaks, lunch) and don't really have the time to do all that. One reason I try to point people to Jeff's extremely well written article on how to ask for help.
We have all seen some of the monsterous code some have posted on this site. It could take hours to format some of the code into a readable format if you don't have a "prettifier" to do the work for you.
And I have to agree with Gail on the posting of SQL Server 2000 questions in SQL Server 2005 forums. You provide a solution based on the forum the question is in, and then hear back "oh, that's nice but I'm using ...".
Well, it's late and I'm supposedly on vacation this week. I will be going to North Platte, NE for an AYSO Three State Soccer Tournament. My middle daughter is playing and I am going as one of our regions referees. Wish her team luck this weekend!
Later!
😎
May 28, 2008 at 8:51 am
NE huh. Welcome to my stomping grounds. If after you drive in and out of the state, you have any questions about oh, say....corn. Let me know!! You'll see lots of it out that way.
To be more on-topic, I also see the situation quite often where you can't really tell what the poster is really trying to do, but it looks like they're trying to do something really off mark. Like Lynn said, they don't want to tell you what problem they are trying to solve, they are just asking for help with what they think should be the solution. What bugs me is when you ask them for some background on the problem domain and someone comes in before they've given more info and gives them a coded solution to their posting. You know that there's a better way and that what they are trying to do seems like a kludge, but they get an 'answer' and they're gone baby gone.
May 28, 2008 at 10:32 am
Jeff Moden (5/27/2008)
There are exceptions, especially amongst friends. But some of these folks' arrogance is just beyond me... like I said, it must just be a difference in language because some of these folks come off like you're working for them personally.
Well - not to be blunt, but there are a few of our regular regular requesters who I believe are using this place for just that: cheap dev staff.... And we oblige!
That being said - I think it's starting to sink in (to add more info). Even if stuff isn't perfectly formatted - posting some data is better than not (assuming it's actually relevant data of course!). Would help if it were formatted, but you take what you can get.
Now, repeat offenders on the other hand.....:w00t:
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
May 28, 2008 at 1:08 pm
Matt's right on that observation. Instead of teaching someone to fish, we end up doing the fishing, and we get nothing in return. Well not totally true. We have the satisfaction of knowing who really wrote the code and/or solved the problem.
😎
May 28, 2008 at 2:12 pm
I agree with Matt as well, and also ask that if someone hasn't made any attempt to solve something or figure it out, ask them to. We don't want to be answering exam questions for people.
May 29, 2008 at 9:21 am
I've been guilty of that myself. Good reminder, John. 🙂
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
May 29, 2008 at 5:40 pm
NE huh. Welcome to my stomping grounds. If after you drive in and out of the state, you have any questions about oh, say....corn. Let me know!! You'll see lots of it out that way.
Out of curiosity, what part of NE?
To be more on-topic, I also see the situation quite often where you can't really tell what the poster is really trying to do, but it looks like they're trying to do something really off mark. Like Lynn said, they don't want to tell you what problem they are trying to solve, they are just asking for help with what they think should be the solution. What bugs me is when you ask them for some background on the problem domain and someone comes in before they've given more info and gives them a coded solution to their posting. You know that there's a better way and that what they are trying to do seems like a kludge, but they get an 'answer' and they're gone baby gone.
Might be a little guilty here myself, but I also understand what John is talking about having been on the side asking for more details as well.
😎
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