February 7, 2010 at 10:20 pm
GilaMonster (2/7/2010)
Jeff Moden (2/6/2010)
Voting by the general public smacks of a popularity contest rather than a public service award (which is what being an MVP is really all about).Agreed. While many MVPs are popular, it shouldn't go the other way around. I know some MVPs that work tirelessly in the local community, but if I mentioned names I doubt anyone here would have heard of them. Doesn't make them any less deserving.
In addition, complaining that the Microsoft MVP award is administered and judged by Microsoft employees is just a little odd.
I agree with both Jeff and Gail. I know who some of the MVP's are. I also know where the list of all MVPs can be found. Many of the MVPs, I have never heard of and was surprised by many of them. If I were to vote (as is suggested by the article), I would not be doing it any justice. I would have limited information and would base my votes mostly on popularity (human nature - vote for those you know). I don't see how opening the voting up could render the award a fair award.
I don't have inside information and I don't know many of the MVPs like another MVP might. They might be able to disclose some of the short-fallings and some of the benefits of the program as-is. For me, it is fine just the way it is.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
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February 8, 2010 at 12:45 am
Democracy.. well it would have been nice.
Come to think about it, it would have been nice if the Olympic Games also was made a democracy.
February 8, 2010 at 4:48 am
I wasn't really complaining that the award is judged by Microsoft employees; just arguing that it could be a little more open and that introducing an element of community voting could be a good way to get many more people engaged with the award. I think this could only be a good thing for Microsoft.
I was careful in the editorial to suggest that only a small number of MVPs would be "community elected". I wasn't arguing for wholesale change in the way the program in managed or for turning the award into a beauty contest. I suggested the MSDN voting because, as several have pointed out, it is Microsoft's award.
I do think Microsoft, generally, does a good job of running the award program, though I also think it could be improved and I don't agree that it would be devalued by introducing a community-voted element. The award isn't about Microsoft assessing how smart you are. It's about what you're prepared to do to help people succeed with their technology. Members of community sites are perfectly well-qualified to make a judgment on who in their community has done that.
February 8, 2010 at 7:07 am
it is a ridiculous system - anybody can judge a person by their forum posts
we do not need Microsoft's help
and to be motivated by gaining MVP status? come on ...
February 8, 2010 at 7:35 am
First, although I would be honored if I were selected as a SQL Server MVP, I don't really see that happening in the near future.
I have chosen to participate in the SQL Server Commumnity by devoting may time and effort here on SSC trying to help others learn more about SQL Server and to become better developers or DBAs. I have done this as a way to give back to the community that has greatly benefitted my knowledge and skills with SQL Server. I have learned things here that I doubt I would have learned on my own or if I did, it would have taken years for me to realize what I have learned in a much shorter period of time.
I have started writing some articles as a way of transfering knowledge in specific areas as way of passing on additional knowledge, as I have also by trying to blog (although I haven't been very active in that area for a few months).
Should there be more openess in the Microsoft MVP program, maybe, but this is Microsoft's award and they should be allowed to run it how they feel best. If you had a community vote should only people with MSDN subscriptions be allowed to vote ina community selection, no. I consider myself a highly knowledgeable SQL Server professional, I don't have an MSDN subscription, why should I be denied a vote if there were a community vote allowed?
February 8, 2010 at 8:32 am
"If it ain't broke, why "fix" it?"
Giving the masses the ability to vote on it without them having some type of ownership stake in it is a sure way of having a most popular or name-recognition persons getting the slots. You try to fix this a little by restricting it to MSDN account holders which is probably an ok compromise (like only allowing property owners to vote).
However, you said that it was working because people wanted it to work. If that changes, then look at fixing it. Otherwise, leave it alone!
February 8, 2010 at 9:03 am
I agree with those who have said that putting the weighting of the different contributions out there would open up the system to being gamed and people who would do that are not people I would want to see be an MVP.
Over the last 2 years or so, I have met many SQL Server MVP's and all of them have earned the award. All of them have different levels of knowledge and all of them have different areas of expertise as well. I've also met many people who are not MVP's who I think would be great MVP's, but you have to limit the number in order for the program to maintain value.
If I were to change the MVP Program at all, at least within SQL Server, I'd prefer to see SQL Server MVP's have concentrations like SSIS, Performance, SSAS, etc... An MVP could be one in several concentrations. I say this because, if I were to be awarded, I might answer a question in SSIS where I have experience, but not expert level like Brian Knight or Andy Leonard, and if I list that I'm an MVP in my signature my answer may be given greater weight because of that, when a non-MVP with more SSIS expertise may have provided a better answer.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
Check out these links on how to get faster and more accurate answers:
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February 8, 2010 at 10:41 am
I also don't think it needs to be changed.
Definitely don't need "DBA Idol".
If specific forum sites were to implement MVP awards for their sites, they could certainly do it with a popular vote mechanism as all/part of it. If I were asked to vote for a series of SSC MVPs, I could certainly do that. If I were asked to vote for "forum MVPs", including ExpertsExchange, MSDN, et al, I wouldn't even know where to start. I imagine that would be the same for most others.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 9, 2010 at 6:30 am
.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
February 9, 2010 at 6:32 am
I have a mixed opinion on the MVP award. I have discussed with, received help from, assisted and read postings by MVP's. The level of quality appears to vary greatly. Most are very good. Occasionally, I have been given reason to call into question the person's award. They appear to be worthy of ejection from the industry completely.
It reminds me of the situation when certification went big in the UK circa 1999-2000 and every student, worker (especially foreign workers for visa purposes) and double glazing salesmen got certified to try and pass themselves off as experts. Some in the first category had the potential to become experts. Some in the middle category were experts. Some in the last category were very nice. The point being that those you come across who devalue the MVP award risk taring all MVPs with the same brush.
As a community we must be wary of what an award means. I would like to be able to see why a particular MVP was awarded the status and for what, if any, technical area e.g. I contribute here but there is no way I should get a SQL Server MVP - OK more accurately there is no way I should get a MVP award. If I post here as Gary Varga MVP I would not want people to add the context of my contributions (SQLServerCentral.com) to my non-existant MVP award given for my contributions elsewhere and then assume I am an expert in SQL Server.
Is this a question of reader beware?
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
February 9, 2010 at 7:00 am
Gary Varga Old (2/9/2010)
The level of quality appears to vary greatly. Most are very good. Occasionally, I have been given reason to call into question the person's award.
I would unfortunately have to agree with you on that point. 🙁 :sick:
As a community we must be wary of what an award means. I would like to be able to see why a particular MVP was awarded the status and for what, if any, technical area e.g. I contribute here but there is no way I should get a SQL Server MVP
Many (most?) MVPs, when they list the award in a signature will list the technical speciality that the award is for. So, if I were to put it in my sig, it would read
Microsoft MVP for SQL Server
That tells you that you should expect that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to SQL Server, but if I start telling you how to write a web application, run fast.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
February 9, 2010 at 7:04 am
GilaMonster (2/9/2010)
Gary Varga Old (2/9/2010)
As a community we must be wary of what an award means. I would like to be able to see why a particular MVP was awarded the status and for what, if any, technical area e.g. I contribute here but there is no way I should get a SQL Server MVPMany (most?) MVPs, when they list the award in a signature will list the technical speciality that the award is for. So, if I were to put it in my sig, it would read
Microsoft MVP for SQL Server
That tells you that you should expect that I know what I'm talking about when it comes to SQL Server, but if I start telling you how to write a web application, run fast.
I think I am paraphrasing Jack Corbett by highlighted that an expert in one area or application of SQL Server is not necessarily experienced in other areas yet the MVP carries equal weighting. SQL Server is huge. Perhaps SQL Server MVP is too alll ecncompasing for some.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
February 9, 2010 at 7:19 am
Gary's argument for the award (and Jack's) are the problem I've seen with the MCSE, MCDBA, etc. over the years. HAving one doesn't mean you have expertise in clustering, replication, SSIS, etc. It's too general a test. In my mind, to be an MCDBA, you'd really need to pass 12-15 tests, each covering different aspects of SQL Server. Why don't we have a replication test? Why not an SSIS test?
The other problem is that the MVP is a community service award, but perceived as a technical one. I know a lot about SQL Server, but I don't claim expert status in any particular area. Nor would I be the expert to dive into a deep technical problem. Yet some people perceive it that way.
February 9, 2010 at 10:58 am
Steve Jones - Editor (2/9/2010)
Gary's argument for the award (and Jack's) are the problem I've seen with the MCSE, MCDBA, etc. over the years. HAving one doesn't mean you have expertise in clustering, replication, SSIS, etc. It's too general a test. In my mind, to be an MCDBA, you'd really need to pass 12-15 tests, each covering different aspects of SQL Server. Why don't we have a replication test? Why not an SSIS test?The other problem is that the MVP is a community service award, but perceived as a technical one. I know a lot about SQL Server, but I don't claim expert status in any particular area. Nor would I be the expert to dive into a deep technical problem. Yet some people perceive it that way.
I think publishing the extent of one's community service would be good for the award. We don't know all of the MVP's but maybe we could get insight into what all of them do. Some we have an inkling of an idea - many we have no clue at all why they are an MVP.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 9, 2010 at 11:04 am
Steve Jones - Editor (2/9/2010)
Gary's argument for the award (and Jack's) are the problem I've seen with the MCSE, MCDBA, etc. over the years. HAving one doesn't mean you have expertise in clustering, replication, SSIS, etc. It's too general a test. In my mind, to be an MCDBA, you'd really need to pass 12-15 tests, each covering different aspects of SQL Server. Why don't we have a replication test? Why not an SSIS test?The other problem is that the MVP is a community service award, but perceived as a technical one. I know a lot about SQL Server, but I don't claim expert status in any particular area. Nor would I be the expert to dive into a deep technical problem. Yet some people perceive it that way.
I think this is where the rub lies. It's specifically advertised as seeking the "best and the brightest" in the technical community.
Quote:
These exceptional community leaders come from a wide range of backgrounds. They are teachers, artists, doctors, engineers, as well as technologists, who actively share their high-quality, real-world technical expertise with the community and with Microsoft
(from Microsoft's own description of what MVP's are)
It's hard to perceive as a purely community service award when the only theme that consistently comes up on the descriptions about it is the technical expertise aspect.
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