October 31, 2013 at 9:12 am
krowley (10/31/2013)
Gary Varga (10/31/2013)
krowley (10/31/2013)
...was sort of hoping a short cut at least existed...None that are worthwhile. Great rewards generally require great endeavour.
It isn't the work I want to short cut around. I would gladly do MORE work if I could avoid the hell of applying for jobs, traditional interviews etc... I just find the whole process of job hunting as I have experienced it so dehumanizing it makes me crazy. Give me some way of proving I am competent at what I do and then help me find a position that fits my personality and skills without all this and I will love you.
I guess what I want is a kind of E-Harmony for job hunting. A shortcut only in that it does a lot of the personality etc matching for you, but you still have to do the hard work of building a relationship.
Perhaps you should read Grow Your Family as many people find this useful apparently. I still think that if the interview is too painful then so will the job. I can't help but feel that you want it handed to you on a plate. You say not but all of us go through the same rigmarole. Some less frequently because they find a home others more frequently because they work freelance.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
October 31, 2013 at 9:35 am
I also do not look forward to any interview for a future job. I have sat on panels and interviewed tons of technical and managerial candidates but have not been interviewed for a position for over 20 years. It might be interesting to sit on the opposite side of the table. But for now things are fine as they are.
Comment on MVP -> Let Microsoft do as Microsoft will do, they have recognized some great people over the years, but they also have proved that they can be fooled in this area also. For the most part we should go about doing excellent work and let the MVP's and other things fall where they may.
M.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
October 31, 2013 at 9:48 am
You say not but all of us go through the same rigmarole.
This sounds like the justification to keep hazing traditions at schools. "Everyone here went through this hazing ritual so it is wrong of you to want to not have to be hazed."
Just because this is historically the way things have been done does not make it right or best.
As a geek, I want my systems to work as efficiently as possible, and the "find a job" system as at least I have experienced it does not work this way at all.
October 31, 2013 at 10:02 am
krowley (10/31/2013)
You say not but all of us go through the same rigmarole.
This sounds like the justification to keep hazing traditions at schools. "Everyone here went through this hazing ritual so it is wrong of you to want to not have to be hazed."
Just because this is historically the way things have been done does not make it right or best.
As a geek, I want my systems to work as efficiently as possible, and the "find a job" system as at least I have experienced it does not work this way at all.
I think that you are being a little disingenuous here. An interview is what you make of it. If you feel that the interviewers are not suitable in their behaviour then walk in the comfort that they are extremely unlikely to be a good fit as colleagues in that company's environment. If it is like hazing then run. Perhaps it is uncomfortable because you are not a suitable fit for the given role.
Alternatives have been tried and some interview practices have changed accordingly but some very smart people have tried to come up with alternative methods and failed.
Also remember, it is often not the most particularly pleasant role for the interviewer(s) either. Sometimes knowing that can help those being interviewed.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
October 31, 2013 at 10:14 am
Gary Varga (10/31/2013)
Also remember, it is often not the most particularly pleasant role for the interviewer(s) either. Sometimes knowing that can help those being interviewed.
Very wise statement here. It is very often uncomfortable being the one doing the interview. Often I have wanted to coach the person and assist them to overcome the fear and confidence problems they have. As one doing the questioning I want them to get it right, and I want their personality to come out. It is hard at times to let them only give what they think should be there, or only what comes to them first. Lastly it is hard to not ask a follow-on question and still be fair to others who have already interviewed or will do so in the process.
M.
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
October 31, 2013 at 10:18 am
An interview is what you make of it.
I think perhaps I have not communicated as well as possible.
It isn't so much interviews I mind as the insane process of getting to that point in the job hunting process. Interviews can be great and useful tools if they are focused on determining if you and the company "fit" personality wise. If they are used to determine competency this is a waste as if we can't come up with a decent test to determine competency there is no way we can determine it in a short interview.
What I hate is the process of looking for open positions that fit my competencies, filling out applications, (with the same info being needed almost every time but we for some reason can't standardize this so I can just let the computer fill in the info for me), building\customizing a resume\CV etc...
There has to be a better way to match potential employees and employers up in the pre-interview stage.
Going back to my E-Harmony example. Dating sites only deal with this pre-interview portion of the hunt for a potential mate, you still have to go on that first date (interview) and determine if you like each other, but at least you are not wasting time on the pre-date hunt.
So far job sites don't really do this. I thing for technical jobs at least this should be possible to achieve from a technical standpoint and just wish someone would do this.
October 31, 2013 at 10:31 am
krowley (10/31/2013)
...What I hate is the process of looking for open positions that fit my competencies, filling out applications, (with the same info being needed almost every time but we for some reason can't standardize this so I can just let the computer fill in the info for me), building\customizing a resume\CV etc...
It doesn't seem to be same in the UK. It is mostly based on CVs (resumes to the USA folk - as for the rest of the world erm, sorry, I don't know).
I am not a huge fan of tailoring CVs to job applications. Arguably it is an opportunity to highlight the most relevant experience you have but I find that it is too tempting for candidates to, or often agents asking candidates to, emphasise something that is a little bit more than a stretching of the truth. I know it is standard practice but I put my CV out there, warts and all, and I get something or I don't. Having said that I keep it matched word for work with my (publicly visible) LinkedIn profile (which also includes positions that have dropped off of the end of the CV).
Can you put your resume online and turn the tables around?
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
October 31, 2013 at 10:35 am
Every job I've had in the last 10 years (including the one I'm starting at tomorrow) has been a personal referral. Not from someone looking at the alphabet soup of qualifications and saying 'yeah, that'll do', but from someone I know mentioning a job to me or mentioning my name to someone hiring. Hence why I said make friends. Visit your local usergroup (or start a usergroup), make friends online, etc, etc.
As for a standardised test, that assumes that all companies are the same, which is not true. Some may need specific skills, some may need top-level people, some may need someone with moderate skills across the board.
Oh, and once we have standardised tests, we get to deal with this kind of person - http://ask.sqlservercentral.com/questions/107800/i-put-3-years-experience-as-a-sql-developer-i-want.html, the kind who will cheat, will lie, will pay others to write the test for him, etc.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
October 31, 2013 at 10:51 am
GilaMonster (10/31/2013)
Oh, and once we have standardised tests, we get to deal with this kind of person - http://ask.sqlservercentral.com/questions/107800/i-put-3-years-experience-as-a-sql-developer-i-want.html, the kind who will cheat, will lie, will pay others to write the test for him, etc.
Hilarious!!!
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
October 31, 2013 at 12:36 pm
GilaMonster (10/31/2013)
krowley (10/31/2013)
Now for me at least, it seems like the MVP is the closest there is to a top level certification that truly means you are an expert at the technology.Except it doesn't. MVP is not a certificate of technical competency. It says nothing at all about how much you know about the product. It certainly does not mean that the person is an expert.
So if I wanted to have a credential that would guarantee me a job as a DBA any time I needed/wanted to change positions being a MVP would be the best credential available now.
MVP is an award for community contributions. That's it. It shouldn't guarantee a DBA job any more than spending time at Toastmasters should. It's about how much you share with the community, not what technical level you're at. I often say it's an award to talking too much.
+1. Agree with Gail here.
October 31, 2013 at 5:07 pm
GilaMonster (10/31/2013)
krowley (10/31/2013)
Sigh , I hate the whole job hunting process and was sort of hoping a short cut at least existed. Not that I would have been able to take it when it comes time for me to look for my next job, but at least it would have given me hope that there was a better way of finding a job out there.
It's called the community. Write, post, make a name for yourself, make friends (not alphabet soup). Then put your blog/articles on your CV. That way you can show your competency to would-be employers. Ask those new friends about potential new jobs.
btw, I haven't met a single HR person who, after looking at my CV went 'Wow, you're an MVP.' Most went 'What's MVP and why should I care?'
+1000 and I'd agree on the HR thing except that I don't even list being an MVP.
--Jeff Moden
Change is inevitable... Change for the better is not.
October 31, 2013 at 6:40 pm
krowley (10/31/2013)
It isn't the work I want to short cut around. I would gladly do MORE work if I could avoid the hell of applying for jobs, traditional interviews etc... I just find the whole process of job hunting as I have experienced it so dehumanizing it makes me crazy. Give me some way of proving I am competent at what I do and then help me find a position that fits my personality and skills without all this and I will love you.I guess what I want is a kind of E-Harmony for job hunting. A shortcut only in that it does a lot of the personality etc matching for you, but you still have to do the hard work of building a relationship.
I went to a for-profit business college for a few semesters back when the MCSE was still building up to the total cert mills. In that process they taught the students how to build a portfolio and how to interview for a job.
That also showed me what to look at when working from the other side of the table. So if we had an open position that I was involved in the interview it might be the "senior" position. But if someone came in and repeated MVP, or any other certification, made them qualified I'm going to look at them very hard before I give them the nod.
I do a lot of my stuff on Experts-Exchange. (I know the derision it is held by some of the community so don't even bother with the heckling.) So when I have an over all Ace overall and a Genius level cert, it shows that I can think. I put that sort of stuff in my portfolio. So in an interview I pull out my portfolio and show the articles I have written, some of the tougher Q's I have answered, examples of code I have written in both VBA and T-SQL. From there the tech interviews are simple.
If I can't get past the HR because I don't have a college degree or an MVP or an MCSE/MCDBA -- that tells me the company isn't for me. They are looking for the politically correct letters on the letterhead. I don't care for that. The company will be cliquish and feel like a frat/sorority house.
My prior company hired me and let me make a new role and standards. They still have problems recreating my standards with a single person. That is three plus years in the past. My new company I helped my boss get promoted to the director level. I have implemented monitoring systems for the network team. Because of my old bosses promotion I have a new supervisor. I just talked to him today. He is more than willing to let me schedule my days off and in the near future telecommute.
If you're good -- it shows through. If you're crappy it shows up as well.
----------------
Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
October 31, 2013 at 6:45 pm
GilaMonster (10/31/2013)
MVP is an award for community contributions. That's it. It shouldn't guarantee a DBA job any more than spending time at Toastmasters should. It's about how much you share with the community, not what technical level you're at. I often say it's an award to talking too much.
That is probably a really good synopsis of the award.
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
November 1, 2013 at 4:09 am
Thank you, Steve, I like your approach 🙂
One thing is to get and keep a job, a career, money, fame, whatever. However, I always find the true improvements stemming from not pursuing an award. People who continuously do what they like and have talent for - they become good. And sometimes that is just enough to outperform their peers, and we call them "great" and listen when they talk. To my mind, someone being an Microsoft MVP is simply a signal that this person is probably worth listening to. But as always: Is all about content.
November 1, 2013 at 6:00 am
Gary Varga (10/31/2013)
GilaMonster (10/31/2013)
Oh, and once we have standardised tests, we get to deal with this kind of person - http://ask.sqlservercentral.com/questions/107800/i-put-3-years-experience-as-a-sql-developer-i-want.html, the kind who will cheat, will lie, will pay others to write the test for him, etc.Hilarious!!!
+10 Hilarious.
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