June 22, 2009 at 2:40 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Becoming a DBA
June 23, 2009 at 1:28 am
I think this is exactly why certifications are important.
For instance, if the person pass the MCTS exam, that person should be "capable" of fulfilling a junior/intermediate DBA role and should be trusted with his knowledge and skills.
That doesn't mean this person will be a "good" DBA, but he should be able to do the job.
Allthough the certifications are proof of your knowledge, but you need more than certifications to be a good DBA 🙂
June 23, 2009 at 1:37 am
Do u think that getting a certification is more important than the Job experience..
June 23, 2009 at 1:55 am
No, definitely not 🙂
But in keeping with Steve's topic, I think the certification will give the candidate the confidence that he is good enough to apply for a DBA position.
June 23, 2009 at 7:04 am
I think that certifications may warrant talking with someone about a position, but are not the be-all-end-all solution to saying someone is qualified for the job. A favorite answer around these forums is "it depends". And I think that certainly is the case here. There are plenty of great DBAs that have not gotten certified (including myself), and plenty of terrible DBAs that have the credentials (not to say that the converse isn't also true...). I agree with Steve that there is a certain amount of time - which is different for each individual - that a junior DBA should have before management considers them ready for the next step. Lots of times, it's a matter of just how much effor the individual puts in - and how much they take on without being asked. (Of course the quality of their work is a main component in that judgement of whether they're ready also!)
June 23, 2009 at 7:10 am
Cute photo Steve - your daughter?
June 23, 2009 at 7:14 am
As someone who has been working in the field for a number of years (to many to be exact), I have learned that testing, and education are great measures of a persons abilities. BUT, however, whether or not that person can fufill the duties assigned to them always remain to be seen.
When I was hiring, I looked at GPA's, how well they handled themselves in an interview and I looked for key items that told me they knew their stuff. I also drew on my past experiences when I tried to get into the industry - experience was talking louder than education and it was really frustrating.
As for knowing when someone is ready for something like a DBA Role in a company? I can only tell them that if they feel they are ready, understand the technologies, what the responsibilities are, and can meet those challenges, then they are ready. Just jump in, do what is required of you, and keep up with the changes. Don't get complacent, get your certs and show them that you have what it takes. After all, an education tells and employer that your trainable, experience tells them you can do the job. You will never know if your ready until you try.
As for me, it was just a natural thing for me to push myself into those roles without worring about whether or not I was ready - I love challenges and this has been my biggest to date!
June 23, 2009 at 7:26 am
TVR (6/23/2009)
I think this is exactly why certifications are important.For instance, if the person pass the MCTS exam, that person should be "capable" of fulfilling a junior/intermediate DBA role and should be trusted with his knowledge and skills.
That doesn't mean this person will be a "good" DBA, but he should be able to do the job.
Allthough the certifications are proof of your knowledge, but you need more than certifications to be a good DBA 🙂
I agree. At least twice a year in these forums I see a debate spring up about certifications. And I stand by my ongoing position - the certification is a bottom floor, if you will. It is useful because if someone has one, you have established a minimum level of knowledge for them (assuming they haven't cheated, of course). But that is just the start of the conversation, and you still need to evaluate their previous experience, what accomplishments they can articulate - explain what they did and why, in other words, not just list it - and how they deal with other people. The certification is good for what it does, as long as someone doesn't take it for more than what it is. Just like the SAT, GMAT, MCAT, etc.
And more stringent certifications would probably have the effect of demonstrating a higher "bottom floor." So an MCTS shows one level of minimum knowledge, but an MCITP shows a higher one.
Furthermore, I think even those who claim that there are DBAs who haven't been certified are not entirely accurate. Those DBAs have been "certified" by life and the real world, so to speak. They may not have had the formal test for the Microsoft acronym, but they have shown that they could pass such a test if they had to, and a lot can pass the much tougher daily tests in their real world jobs. But I don't think that such real world certification reduces the usefulness of a conventional certification in evaluating candidates.
- webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
June 23, 2009 at 7:42 am
I think part of the problem is that the wrong question is being asked. The question shouldn't be when someone is ready to be a DBA, the question should be if someone has the proper skills and talents to be a DBA.
Having the skills and having the talents is an important distinction, with skills being something you can learn, and talents being abilities that are not learned but a part of who you are as a person. Unfortunately not everyone would agree what the skills and talents needed are, but for certain, certifications can typically only measure what you memorize or know rather than understand. From my experience, both as being a DBA before, and working with many different DBAs at different companies, The things I've found to be important are below.
Skills:
- understanding the differences and nuances of physical database design and logical database design
- understanding how disk I/O and network I/O affect a databases
- understanding the different operations that happen because of a join in a statement
- understanding indexes and how they are used in a statement
Talents:
- being able to visualize how data moves through the database
- being able to "think in SQL"
- ability to holistically think about the data in a system or application
- dedicated and trustworthy
- being organized
- observant and curious
June 23, 2009 at 7:42 am
Before I was a DBA I used to operate nuclear reactors for the US Navy. To be a qualified operator (in my case an EOOW) we had to (1) pass a pretty rigorous six month school-house academic course; (2) qualify to operate a land-based prototype which included: (3) written tests on the land-based prototype; (4) fact check-offs where we studied a subject/equipment then got one-on-one checkoff on the subject with an expert on that subject/equipment; (5) standing a series of 4 hour watches at various watch stations under instruction (UI) with an experienced watch-stander; (6) stand many (UI) watches on the particular watch-station we were especially qualifying for; (7) take a series of mid- and final-exams, both written and oral; (8) stand a graded non-UI watch with simulated casualty conditions under the observation of three very experienced trainers who had to unanimously pass the examinee.
Then when you got out to the fleet on the shipboard reactor you had to do #'s 3-8 again to get qualified on the shipboard reactor. So by the time you were operating a reactor in the fleet you had already qualified twice.
So what qualifies you to be a DBA? I would like to see a series of fact-based checkoffs with subject matter experts, a series of written tests, and then a series of accomplishing actual tasks. Coming up with this series of "qualification" tasks would be a very interesting topic. Currently we just have a few written multiple choice certification tests. I think this is only 1/3 of the qualification.
June 23, 2009 at 7:46 am
Then an old friend of mine had a saying - "You can't say 'yes' if you can't say 'no'."
In other words, I would presume that some people do not have the apptitude/ability to be a DBA even though they "want to" very much. But if we can't say "no" to these people, then we really don't have a "yes" qualification as a DBA.
I know this is probably a little controversial but if you are going to have a qualified DBA then you have to distinguish those people who are not qualified - and may never be so.
June 23, 2009 at 8:06 am
drnetwork (6/23/2009)
Before I was a DBA I used to operate nuclear reactors for the US Navy. To be a qualified operator (in my case an EOOW) we had to (1) pass a pretty rigorous six month school-house academic course; (2) qualify to operate a land-based prototype which included: (3) written tests on the land-based prototype; (4) fact check-offs where we studied a subject/equipment then got one-on-one checkoff on the subject with an expert on that subject/equipment; (5) standing a series of 4 hour watches at various watch stations under instruction (UI) with an experienced watch-stander; (6) stand many (UI) watches on the particular watch-station we were especially qualifying for; (7) take a series of mid- and final-exams, both written and oral; (8) stand a graded non-UI watch with simulated casualty conditions under the observation of three very experienced trainers who had to unanimously pass the examinee.Then when you got out to the fleet on the shipboard reactor you had to do #'s 3-8 again to get qualified on the shipboard reactor. So by the time you were operating a reactor in the fleet you had already qualified twice.
So what qualifies you to be a DBA? I would like to see a series of fact-based checkoffs with subject matter experts, a series of written tests, and then a series of accomplishing actual tasks. Coming up with this series of "qualification" tasks would be a very interesting topic. Currently we just have a few written multiple choice certification tests. I think this is only 1/3 of the qualification.
Thanks for that - it would be great if such a program were available to prospective DBAs. Frankly, at this point I'm not sure that I could pass such a rigorous program! But I think that for the good of the profession, such a certification would help both DBAs and their employers. I think the rigor and level of detail would also help people more clearly face the facts if they find they are not cut out to be DBAs. It wouldn't be the answer they wanted at the start, but I think most people would respect the results of such a rigorous process and would realize that they should seek a different path.
I'm not sure if the MCITP could be extended to the above model, but it would be interesting to see.
- webrunner
-------------------
A SQL query walks into a bar and sees two tables. He walks up to them and asks, "Can I join you?"
Ref.: http://tkyte.blogspot.com/2009/02/sql-joke.html
June 23, 2009 at 8:29 am
It's like when is a person a mechanic? There's a difference between doing a competent job on mufflers and brakes at Midas and being on a F1 pit crew. Both are legitimate jobs but the requirments are vastly different.
Being a dba in a high voume, hi availability 24/7 transactional environment is a lot different than in a small shop with a few hundred transactions a day, and much different from a design/development shop.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
June 23, 2009 at 8:29 am
Just to throw a wrench in the discussion, I consider myself to be a database developer, but not a database administrator. I'm a web application developer, and rather than outsourcing the db development functions, I design and modify tables, create queries with complex joins, create and alter views, sprocs using transactions, triggers, ... On the other hand, I have little experience/confidence with db security, backups/restores, and other maintenance tasks.
I'm wondering to what extent the db world makes a distinction between the two roles (db developer vs. dba), if employers consider one role to be more valuable (or as valuable) than the other, and if applicable, when one is ready to be a db developer???
June 23, 2009 at 8:54 am
I think that certifications are like the wizards. They can show you that someone can sit in class and take tests. They will do a good job of making sure that you never have to interview someone like me.
ATBCharles Kincaid
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