February 10, 2009 at 1:11 pm
DavidB (2/9/2009)
Dr John Stott"Nearly all legislation has grown up because we simply cannot be trusted to settle our disputes with justice and without self-interest. A promise is not enough; we need a contract. Doors are not enough; we have to lock and bolt them. The payment of fares is not enough; tickets have to be issued, inspected and collected. Law and order are not enough; we need the police to enforce them. .... We cannot trust each other. We need protection against one another. It is a terrible indication of what human nature is really like."
The last sentence struck me by Stott's use of the word "nature." New humans learn how to act and behave from older humans, the so-called role models and parents. I personally believe that the quality of parenting and role models have seriously degraded in the past 50 years, leading to less moral younger generations. I'm not saying there aren't good parents. Or good role models. I'm saying that there are WAY less of them to go around these days.
I can't help but believe that if someone grows up learning to mimick a jerk, they're going to act like a jerk when they're grown unless there is some kind of intervention that stops this. The "intervention" gets sticky because I'm also a big proponent of personal rights and I'd like the right to raise my children how I see fit.
Nate
February 10, 2009 at 1:17 pm
It seems to me that many IT folks are among the most controlling (well them, and lawyers).
Perhaps they tend to treat people as they treat machines, with need to control, specify boundaries, cover every contingency. People are viewed as processes, which must be spied on, managed, and constantly monitored, local decisions and control are suppressed.
What happens, though, is loss of cooperation (which is much more valuable than control). Humans inherently rebel when their actions are needlessly constrained and their judgement is not respected. Rigid workplace rules replace sensible guidelines and respect. The value that's lost is the instinct for cooperation, which is far more flexible and powerful than any system of rules (which, by it's nature constrains more than it helps). Humans as a species have evolved the most powerful instinct for cooperation on the planet, and while there are pathological individuals, most have mastered the art of nuanced interaction. Alas nuance is destroyed when replaced by regulation.
We see this in the abject failure of our invasively complexe legal system. Every perceived problem invites new laws, which seldom accomplishe what they are touted to do and often just manage to constrain or entrap relatively harmless individuals.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
February 10, 2009 at 4:30 pm
What I don't trust is the fact that there is more than 1 David B floating around on the forums!
Doppelganger!
😛
But seriously. Trust has been a problem for as long as humans have existed, we just go through waves of trust levels as time goes by.
We get too strict and so generations rebel (Vive la révolution!). We get too liberal and noone takes responsibility for themselves and eventually you get a generation (or group of people) that have had enough of the behaviour and take control once more (Dictatorship), which in turn will eventually trigger the opposite, and so on.
The hope is that when the balance kicks in, it isn't too violent.
February 10, 2009 at 4:53 pm
David B (2/10/2009)
What I don't trust is the fact that there is more than 1 David B floating around on the forums!Doppelganger!
😛
Yeah, just noticed you today too. Funny. I think I am older though.... 🙂
David
@SQLTentmaker“He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain that which he cannot lose” - Jim Elliot
February 10, 2009 at 7:14 pm
Trust but verify has always worked pretty good for me. There are always going to be people who will "burn" a colleague to get a leg up (though I find the majority of those people are in a situation where they are way over their heads and are desperately trying to hide that fact). The vast majority of people I have worked with simply have a different situation or different interpretation of events than I do and once we have common understanding some form of trust can be established. There will always be the 10% factor (the bottom of the bell curve) but you will be aware of them and be able to act accordingly in the future.
There was one comment that disturbed me a little. Respect is earned. Period. I am not talking about dealing with people in a professional manner. I am talking about the respect that one builds up over a career of doing your job and doing it well. To make this another entitlement by virtue of breathing cheapens the idea to the point that it is meaningless, which kind of sums up the decline of western civilization....
February 10, 2009 at 8:24 pm
Mark Classen (2/10/2009)
There was one comment that disturbed me a little. Respect is earned. Period. I am not talking about dealing with people in a professional manner. I am talking about the respect that one builds up over a career of doing your job and doing it well. To make this another entitlement by virtue of breathing cheapens the idea to the point that it is meaningless, which kind of sums up the decline of western civilization....
Allow me to address the point more completely.
I start out by offering people a basic level of respect. This means basic things like holding elevator doors, not crowding a person's space, saying "after you, sir" in a doorway. But it also means listening to a person and getting their viewpoint on things. It means assuming a person knows what he's doing in his profession. Letting everyone in a meeting have a say on a subject, no matter how "low on the totem pole" they are. Making eye-contact and smiling in greeting. All of those things are a baseline of respect.
Many, many people don't practice those things. Dismissing a person's thoughts or ideas or questions without due consideration or even a moment's thought. Forwarding hurtful rumors without thought of the suffering they can bring. Lack of basic courtesy. Those are all signs of disrespect, and I dislike them.
There are people whose opinions I respect more immediately and easily than others. I will generally pay more attention to something Jeff or Gail or Grant (to name a few) posts about SQL than I will to many others. But I will pay attention to posts by people who have less celebrity.
Right up to the point where someone posts a string of interview questions and wants help fraudulently getting a job. At that point, respect goes to zero. And is darn hard, if even possible, to regain.
On the other hand, by granting that initial trust and respect, I've made many good friends out of people who were priorly complete strangers. That's valuable to me.
That is what I mean by respecting everyone till they lose the right to it.
I'd rather err on the side of trust and respect than in the other direction. If I trust where I shouldn't, I get burned, but I get over it. If I distrust where I shouldn't, I'm burning another. That's harder on me than being the victim.
This has worked out very well for me. I've made many friends, gotten to know many interesting and fine people, through this policy, that I otherwise might have missed out on.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 10, 2009 at 10:34 pm
I'm with GSquared on this one, even if he doesn't trust me :w00t:
People deserve respect from the get go. They can lose that, and need to earn it back, but they deserve a certain level of respect. They can also earn more.
My kids have sometimes felt that I have to earn their respect from ground zero. I disagree. I am a parent, and an elder, and as such, deserve some respect from the beginning. I can lose it, I can earn more, but the baseline is not zero, nor should it be in any relationship that starts out.
February 11, 2009 at 12:20 am
Steve Jones - Editor (2/10/2009)
I'm with GSquared on this one, even if he doesn't trust me :w00t:People deserve respect from the get go. They can lose that, and need to earn it back, but they deserve a certain level of respect. They can also earn more.
My kids have sometimes felt that I have to earn their respect from ground zero. I disagree. I am a parent, and an elder, and as such, deserve some respect from the beginning. I can lose it, I can earn more, but the baseline is not zero, nor should it be in any relationship that starts out.
No Steve, I cannot quite agree with you. Parents do not automatically deserve any respect especially if they are drunken and/or abusive. Then there is no baseline for a child's respect for it's parent(s). I suppose you are not talking about this now but a parent also needs to earn respect but you are the guide, the one that will draw the line and if you do not draw the line then respect will also fly out the window.
You say in your article that we should not lay down more rules and yes, I agree with you 'cause rules are meant to be broken. The enforcers of the rules should see that they are not broken. When I married my wife she had two children, I had none, so I laid down some rules in the house and I made sure that these rules were applied and enforced. The only reason people make new rules is because the old ones were never enforced.
:-PManie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Holy Bible
I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times. - Everett Mckinley Dirkson (Well, I am trying. - Manie Verster)
February 11, 2009 at 5:25 am
Manie Verster (2/11/2009)
No Steve, I cannot quite agree with you. Parents do not automatically deserve any respect especially if they are drunken and/or abusive. Then there is no baseline for a child's respect for it's parent(s).
I think I have to side with Steve here, although I see your point, but as a parent, you start from day one with the child, and deserve respect as that elder caregiver who has more experience and is working for the good of the child, whether the child can see it or not.
Of course, the instant that the parent becomes a drunk abuser, respect goes out the window, and it's questionable whether it ever comes back, but that does not mean that any parent should not be respected from the start.
Conversely, if respect is *not* given from the start, it can be earned by judicious application of authority and/or wisdom, but this does not mean that this should be the default.
Think of it as self-preservation. If I step into a bar and see you there, and don't know you, should I spit on your shoes because you haven't earned my respect? What if you're bigger and meaner than me? Or should I be polite and offer you general respect as one human to another until such time as you spit on my shoes, in which case I toss you out the window and plead self-defense.
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How to post performance problems[/url]
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"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
February 11, 2009 at 7:04 am
Steve Jones - Editor (2/10/2009)
I'm with GSquared on this one, even if he doesn't trust me :w00t:
Well.... I'll think about it. 🙂
Of course, you're another one that I trust and listen to more automatically. Can't list everyone who's in that category, so just picked the first few that popped into my mind.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 11, 2009 at 8:57 pm
GSquared (2/10/2009)Allow me to address the point more completely.
I start out by offering people a basic level of respect. This means basic things like holding elevator doors, not crowding a person's space, saying "after you, sir" in a doorway. But it also means listening to a person and getting their viewpoint on things. It means assuming a person knows what he's doing in his profession. Letting everyone in a meeting have a say on a subject, no matter how "low on the totem pole" they are. Making eye-contact and smiling in greeting. All of those things are a baseline of respect.
Thank you. You stated this much more eloquently than I. I think I differ a little on my definition of respect. To me professionalism (or common courtesy) is applied to all just as you are saying. Respect is that additional trust given to individuals who have demonstrated the values I aspire to. Not to say my value system is right, but it is the only compass I have in making these decisions.
As an example, in a past job I worked with an individual who had all the credentials of a god in the sql world. Came in as the lead (at slightly over double my salary). Talked a good game. Unfortunately it was mostly smoke and mirrors. I (along with other members of my team) spent quite a few nights rebuilding his instances after he went home for the day because we couldn't keep them running long enough to verify builds. He admitted to me on a few occasions that he did not know how to do basic tasks and asked me to keep it quiet.
This is where the separation comes in. I had no respect for him. At all. I still treated him as a professional - I did not involve management - I did my best to arrange workflow to make sure my team succeeded regardless of who got credit. We had a few (very civil) conversations outside of the building where we discussed the fact that he was not prepared for the job he had gotten himself into, but inside the walls he was accorded the professionalism everyone deserves. He eventually did find a job that was much better suited to the skillset he had and left on his own terms. I learned a lot about disaster prevention, repeatable build techniques, and communications with adversarial team members during that year. Also used a bunch of the late night rebuilds as training sessions for the dbas with less experience than I. I think I would have lost out on a lot I gained in that year if I didn't sperate respect from professionalism.
On the parent thing, parents earn respect by providing for their children. Babies and small kids don't understand any of this ivy tower stuff. They just know who feeds them and makes sure they don't get hurt. I consider myself a horrible father, but I've always been honest with my daughter, did my best to make sure she understood what was going on (we haven't lived together since she was 2) and had what she needed. From what I hear she thinks I'm not a total idiot and the look on her face when I show up at her dorm tells me I'm not (and it's not just the tuition check because I mail those in):)
February 12, 2009 at 7:20 am
I think it was Voltaire who said, "before you may argue with me, you must define your terms". We gave our definitions of the word, and the disagreement disappeared. 🙂
Just comes down to nuances of the language.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 12, 2009 at 7:37 am
GSquared (2/12/2009)
I think it was Voltaire who said, "before you may argue with me, you must define your terms". We gave our definitions of the word, and the disagreement disappeared. 🙂Just comes down to nuances of the language.
And we are not closer to a resolution
February 12, 2009 at 7:41 am
Bert (2/12/2009)
GSquared (2/12/2009)
I think it was Voltaire who said, "before you may argue with me, you must define your terms". We gave our definitions of the word, and the disagreement disappeared. 🙂Just comes down to nuances of the language.
And we are not closer to a resolution
My solution regarding trust/distrust is Scientology. But don't worry, I'm not going to offer you a "stress test" over the forums. 🙂
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
February 12, 2009 at 7:46 am
Bert (2/12/2009)
GSquared (2/12/2009)
I think it was Voltaire who said, "before you may argue with me, you must define your terms". We gave our definitions of the word, and the disagreement disappeared. 🙂Just comes down to nuances of the language.
And we are not closer to a resolution
You've mentioned that several times, Bert. Do you have any suggestions for a solution yourself?
I think the discussion is lending itself to more personal professionalism (to use Gsquared and Mark's terminology) in our day-to-day contact with other humans, in an effort to maintain civility throughout society. "Every journey begins with a single step" ~ Confucious
---------------------------------------------------------
How best to post your question[/url]
How to post performance problems[/url]
Tally Table:What it is and how it replaces a loop[/url]
"stewsterl 80804 (10/16/2009)I guess when you stop and try to understand the solution provided you not only learn, but save yourself some headaches when you need to make any slight changes."
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