February 10, 2014 at 10:05 am
Well I will add my 2 cents after over 30 years in the IT business. Including twice owning my own consulting business. And my pet peeve is one you will certainly never see in Forbes.
The difference between thinking like a technologist and thinking like an MBA.
Technical training teaches you to evaluate your components on an individual level. Some components are more reliable, some more powerful, each has its own strengths and weaknesses. We natural think of our people resources the exact same way. And you strive to build a team whose strengths compliment each other or make up for each others weaknesses. You tune your team until it's a tight running machine.
"Business" training teaches you that people are interchangeable components. If you have 2 DBAs and both can make you $200K a year and one DBA costs you $50K a year and another costs you $100K a year well you'll get max return on investment out of the cheaper guy right? Because a DBA is a DBA is a DBA, it just makes solid fiscal sense. So get rid of your more experienced staff and replace them with someone just out of college and your profits will soar!
When it comes to the subtopic of "How often should you leave" it comes down to something one of my mentors said to me about half my career ago. "Ten years of experience doesn't count for as much if it is the same year ten times." I am not sure I would agree that a job title change every two years tells you anything, see my second paragraph above. But if you're in a smaller dynamic development group that is regularly pursuing a variety of work your environment can be expected to provide you growth and changing responsibilities. If you're in a group that is focused on keeping an existing system running then from a project perspective dull is good. "No problems" is what the project goal is at the time.
I would suggest that there are three types of DBA jobs: Policy, Development, Maintenance. Policy is setting the standard procedures for yourself and other DBAs within the organization. Usually that is a more senior position. Development is involved with the creation of new software or if existing software is still growing and changing. Maintenance is taking a legacy product and just making sure it continues to perform. In an ideal case you wouldn't have 3 different sets of staff, every DBAs job would be to do a bit of all 3. Involve a mix of experience levels in all 3 to ensure a variety of perspectives makes it into the final mix.
February 10, 2014 at 10:08 am
hisakimatama (2/10/2014)
Hm. Personally, I left my last job after a year and a half; things started out rather good, but after the first year, management became rather frustrating to deal with. Being belittled, insulted on occasion, and even put to work doing manual labor as "punishment" for having a non-optimal holdover solution for an urgent problem so we could stay functional until a better one was developed; all of those kept rolling in one after the other. After that last one, I decided I wasn't going to stick around anymore.My current employer is much more tolerable, though, and barring any massive unforeseen problems (which I really hope don't happen!), I can't see myself leaving for a good while.
On the other hand, my roommate works for a company that barely pays more than the minimum wage for his work as a DBA/developer, the CEO frequently launches into tirades against him when she moves a deadline forward without telling him and functionality isn't implemented yet (you said this would be ready in two weeks for the presentation? Well, I moved it up to the end of the week, went to the presentation, and it didn't work! How dare you embarrass me! An actual conversation, sadly), and is generally a terrible place for social interaction, as everyone's isolated from each other and communication is nearly nonexistent.
Despite this, he refuses to leave, because he (rightly) fears that the place would collapse if he left; he's their only IT worker. I've tried pitching jobs to him, but he doesn't want the company to crumble. Honestly, if it's going to burn down because he leaves, they deserve their fate; running an IT business with only one person, and abusing that person continuously as they work, is not how you do business. Unfortunately, he's just too nice of a person to let it happen.
Both of these are near perfect matches to a job I left a few years back.
That sort of behavior is simply abuse. The reasons your friend won't leave are all too similar to why a battered spouse won't leave a relationship.
Why should the employee value the employer more than the employer values the employee?
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 10, 2014 at 10:11 am
MHilsher (2/10/2014)
Well I will add my 2 cents after over 30 years in the IT business. Including twice owning my own consulting business. And my pet peeve is one you will certainly never see in Forbes.The difference between thinking like a technologist and thinking like an MBA.
Technical training teaches you to evaluate your components on an individual level. Some components are more reliable, some more powerful, each has its own strengths and weaknesses. We natural think of our people resources the exact same way. And you strive to build a team whose strengths compliment each other or make up for each others weaknesses. You tune your team until it's a tight running machine.
"Business" training teaches you that people are interchangeable components. If you have 2 DBAs and both can make you $200K a year and one DBA costs you $50K a year and another costs you $100K a year well you'll get max return on investment out of the cheaper guy right? Because a DBA is a DBA is a DBA, it just makes solid fiscal sense. So get rid of your more experienced staff and replace them with someone just out of college and your profits will soar!
When it comes to the subtopic of "How often should you leave" it comes down to something one of my mentors said to me about half my career ago. "Ten years of experience doesn't count for as much if it is the same year ten times." I am not sure I would agree that a job title change every two years tells you anything, see my second paragraph above. But if you're in a smaller dynamic development group that is regularly pursuing a variety of work your environment can be expected to provide you growth and changing responsibilities. If you're in a group that is focused on keeping an existing system running then from a project perspective dull is good. "No problems" is what the project goal is at the time.
I would suggest that there are three types of DBA jobs: Policy, Development, Maintenance. Policy is setting the standard procedures for yourself and other DBAs within the organization. Usually that is a more senior position. Development is involved with the creation of new software or if existing software is still growing and changing. Maintenance is taking a legacy product and just making sure it continues to perform. In an ideal case you wouldn't have 3 different sets of staff, every DBAs job would be to do a bit of all 3. Involve a mix of experience levels in all 3 to ensure a variety of perspectives makes it into the final mix.
+1
Jason...AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
_______________________________________________
I have given a name to my pain...MCM SQL Server, MVP
SQL RNNR
Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw[/url]
Learn Extended Events
February 10, 2014 at 10:50 am
I have been here in IT for over 20 years and came here right out of college. I started as a data entry operator and steadily have moved up the ladder and have been on the DBA staff since 1993 here. We continue to advance in technology, first I was a DataCom DBA, then Mainframe DB2, then SQL Server and some Oracle. We continue to get new technology here so my skillset continues to advance.
I guess my point is to some that say you cant stay with the same company over 5 years due to becoming stagnant in your skillset... well... if that is the case then every company is stagnant... right? There are many good companies that continue to advance, you just have to find the right ones. Almost every company goes through good periods and bad periods. Personally I have seen a lot of people leave a company simply because they don't see any advancement into Management via their current employeer. One guy I worked with here since 1998 was a great employee, go getter, always kept on top of advances but he left because he advanced as far as he could and was a pay grade below our boss. Our boss isn't leaving and head hunters came calling to him and offered him a DBA management job so he left.
February 10, 2014 at 11:22 am
Please don't conflate changing employers with changing jobs, roles, responsibilities, or tasks.
I spent awhile working at a large company where it was quite normal for people who do like to switch jobs to move between departments every 4-6 years - one person on the Reporting team used to be an Oracle DBA, and before that they were a manager of another team, and so on.
At some of my employers, I've been able to transition between different job responsibilities (or, sometimes, have several at once). I like having a broad set of challenges; I feel it keeps me sharp, and when I have a job I like, I don't have to leave it to try something new every so often.
February 10, 2014 at 11:26 am
Understood... but...
I started being a SQL Server DBA here in 1996... started working with Oracle in 2003 until about 2008 then went back to focusing only on SQL Server and am still a full time SQL Server DBA here though...
February 10, 2014 at 11:27 am
Markus (2/10/2014)
One guy I worked with here since 1998 was a great employee, go getter, always kept on top of advances but he left because he advanced as far as he could and was a pay grade below our boss. Our boss isn't leaving and head hunters came calling to him and offered him a DBA management job so he left.
Another issue I see at a lot of companies is that they setup the compensation system to promoter personnel management over tech skills. In my personal case I never want do full time management of people. Hardware, systems, software sure. Wetware, nah I'll pass. But so many companies to get that money you have to go that route. My last manager -- they valued my tech so much that I wasn't much behind her in pay. And she didn't mind because I made her look good and got her promoted. My new supervisor is at the CxO level.
But if the company tried to turn me into a wetware manager to get more pay -- I'm going to go looking for a new job.
Way back when I had a manager that said she tried to be technical and a manager at the same time. She sucked doing both. She went manager but understood enough tech to translate it from geek to English. She did well at it.
----------------
Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
February 10, 2014 at 1:04 pm
Nadrek (2/10/2014)
Please don't conflate changing employers with changing jobs, roles, responsibilities, or tasks.
True, large companies can offer a wide range of job opportunities.
However, if one accepts the premise 'the fish rots from the head on down', there may be little or no refuge from bad management, even in a large shop, if the person on top of the heap is a bad leader.
February 10, 2014 at 1:13 pm
Craig-315134 (2/10/2014)
Nadrek (2/10/2014)
Please don't conflate changing employers with changing jobs, roles, responsibilities, or tasks.True, large companies can offer a wide range of job opportunities.
However, if one accepts the premise 'the fish rots from the head on down', there may be little or no refuge from bad management, even in a large shop, if the person on top of the heap is a bad leader.
Fortunately some of us work for good people. I frequently comment that if the C-Suite where I work ran the country, we would have full employment and no debt in a decade! They aren't perfect of course, but they know how to run a business, maintain margins and grow revenue.
Dave
February 10, 2014 at 1:18 pm
djackson 22568 (2/10/2014)
Craig-315134 (2/10/2014)
Nadrek (2/10/2014)
Please don't conflate changing employers with changing jobs, roles, responsibilities, or tasks.True, large companies can offer a wide range of job opportunities.
However, if one accepts the premise 'the fish rots from the head on down', there may be little or no refuge from bad management, even in a large shop, if the person on top of the heap is a bad leader.
Fortunately some of us work for good people. I frequently comment that if the C-Suite where I work ran the country, we would have full employment and no debt in a decade! They aren't perfect of course, but they know how to run a business, maintain margins and grow revenue.
There are some golden companies out there, large and small - and they're golden because of those 'good people' who know how to lead.
These kinds of workplaces aren't as common as I wish, but the Darwinistic nature of capitalism sooner or later weeds out the bad ones.
February 11, 2014 at 5:14 am
Craig-315134 (2/10/2014)
...but the Darwinistic nature of capitalism sooner or later weeds out the bad ones.
Oh, I wish I found that to be the case!!!
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
February 11, 2014 at 9:16 am
Gary Varga (2/11/2014)
Craig-315134 (2/10/2014)
...but the Darwinistic nature of capitalism sooner or later weeds out the bad ones.Oh, I wish I found that to be the case!!!
But it *is* the case, Gary.
That's the way the system works. Poorly-managed companies can't compete ad infinitum. True, bad managers can and do pop up even in well-managed firms, but they don't last.
February 11, 2014 at 9:30 am
Craig-315134 (2/11/2014)
Gary Varga (2/11/2014)
Craig-315134 (2/10/2014)
...but the Darwinistic nature of capitalism sooner or later weeds out the bad ones.Oh, I wish I found that to be the case!!!
But it *is* the case, Gary.
That's the way the system works. Poorly-managed companies can't compete ad infinitum. True, bad managers can and do pop up even in well-managed firms, but they don't last.
Unfortunately, I have come across far too many cases of bad staff lasting a long time. I have found "the system" to not be as efficient as you suggest. Either that has been my misfortune or your good fortune. Either way, long may your good experiences continue. 🙂
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
February 11, 2014 at 9:32 am
I have found "the system" to not be as efficient as you suggest.
You must work for government.
😉
February 11, 2014 at 9:33 am
Craig-315134 (2/11/2014)
But it *is* the case, Gary.That's the way the system works. Poorly-managed companies can't compete ad infinitum. True, bad managers can and do pop up even in well-managed firms, but they don't last.
Carly Fiorina for example?
----------------
Jim P.
A little bit of this and a little byte of that can cause bloatware.
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