May 5, 2008 at 10:31 am
Matt,
Joel was originally talking about new grads coming into the market, getting hired by Microsoft or Google and making Sr. level money.
It may be possible to get hired right out of college as a Sr. Developer, but I would imagine this would be unlikely. So, the link in my previous post shows non-senior people for a comparison.
Mia
Mia
I have come to the conclusion that the top man has one principle responsibility: to provide an atmosphere in which creative mavericks can do useful work.
-- David M. Ogilvy
May 5, 2008 at 11:17 am
mhaskins (5/5/2008)
Matt,Joel was originally talking about new grads coming into the market, getting hired by Microsoft or Google and making Sr. level money.
It may be possible to get hired right out of college as a Sr. Developer, but I would imagine this would be unlikely. So, the link in my previous post shows non-senior people for a comparison.
Mia
got it - didn't think we were still discussing the new grads. In that case - yes, I'd say they would be few and far between.
Still - I have to say I'm surprised that he would begrudge anyone their good fortune. Hiring the top talent has always been the purview of those with the deepest pockets, and to be honest - the types of "top talent" they're looking for wouldn't necessarily need "real-world experience": they're looking to land the next Einstein, Stradivari, etc...(someone right off the normal charts, heading for that huge next breakthrough).
The rant stinks of sours grapes IMO (something like what Wayne picked up on).
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
May 5, 2008 at 11:53 am
Matt Miller (5/5/2008)Still - I have to say I'm surprised that he would begrudge anyone their good fortune. Hiring the top talent has always been the purview of those with the deepest pockets, and to be honest - the types of "top talent" they're looking for wouldn't necessarily need "real-world experience": they're looking to land the next Einstein, Stradivari, etc...(someone right off the normal charts, heading for that huge next breakthrough).
The rant stinks of sours grapes IMO (something like what Wayne picked up on).
That's what it feels like to me. The problem is, regarding the first part of Joel's rant about clouds and synchronization, is that MS and Google have to invent "the next big thing", and no one knows what will be (and if they aren't the one to invent it, then jump on that bandwagon ASAP). There may be some indications as to what it might be, but we don't know until it arrives and only then do we know if it will sink or swim.
I don't think data clouds are "it", nor do I think Amazon's "data center for anyone with $$$" is it. It's a very cool thing, and if I needed horsepower on demand, I'd certainly consider it. And if clouds are it, I won't be participating, just like I don't (and won't) have a Facebook profile or a MySpace page.
Frequently we find that the next big thing is going to be someone having a flash of inspiration and a clever implementation to make it real. And that may or may not be a top CS grad, it could just as easily be a *nix hacker mucking about with PHP open source freeware.
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[font="Arial"]Knowledge is of two kinds. We know a subject ourselves or we know where we can find information upon it. --Samuel Johnson[/font]
May 5, 2008 at 12:08 pm
I interviewed twice at Microsoft for consulting/contract positions. The interviewers were rude to the point that I told my agency never to send me there again, even if it was the only job in the world.
Money and "fame" is NOT everything.
May 5, 2008 at 12:10 pm
There is always a problem creating the "must have" product when you have no idea what that product the consumer will consider to be "must have".
What I read into Joel's rant was that no-one wanted the product the first time around and the vendor couldn't believe how stupid the consumer was, so they tried again, and again and again.....
Its a tricky one because on one hand you can ask the consumer what they would consider to be really cool. This is likely to lead to an evolutionary product.
On the other hand you think you have a "eureka" moment that has a 99% chance of falling flat on its face and a 1% chance of producing a revolutionary product.
The problem with young programmers on high salaries is that there is a price/quality perception. He/She is earning mega-bucks therefore they must be a genius. That mentality worked brilliantly in the banking sector didn't it? Lending money to people who can't pay it back is stupid? You just don't get the new paradigm!
when these megabucks programmers are hired as CTOs will they have the experience for their role?
Old age isn't synonymous with wisdom but neither is high intelligence. I've seen some very bright people do very dumb things that a less talented person would look at and say "what sort of fool would do that"!
An inexperienced guy will say "the technology is cool, I've planned it all through, the go live date is next week"!
The experienced guy will say "the technology is cool but human beings are involved so we have some issues to solve. If it goes live it will be in Q4 and the backout plan is ;x'".
May 5, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Steve Jones - Editor (5/5/2008)
Couldn't I go with bald-Ballmer look? I'm getting there on my own already.Course I'm in a little better shape, maybe I'm the tan Ozzie/Ballmer morph! 😉
Sure. And I bet your German isn't that good either.
ATBCharles Kincaid
May 5, 2008 at 1:21 pm
I get a kick out of how he works himself into a frenzy then starts freaking out about Microsoft "sucking up" all the talent...
Then at the end he's advertising for interns but they have to hurry and get thier apps in because he only has 4 spots and gets hundreds of applications?????
May 12, 2008 at 2:48 pm
David.Poole (5/5/2008)
There is always a problem creating the "must have" product when you have no idea what that product the consumer will consider to be "must have".What I read into Joel's rant was that no-one wanted the product the first time around and the vendor couldn't believe how stupid the consumer was, so they tried again, and again and again.....
Its a tricky one because on one hand you can ask the consumer what they would consider to be really cool. This is likely to lead to an evolutionary product.
On the other hand you think you have a "eureka" moment that has a 99% chance of falling flat on its face and a 1% chance of producing a revolutionary product.
QFT. Anyone who has seen an episode of that terrible TV show "American Inventor" can attest to this. 😀
May 12, 2008 at 3:09 pm
tim (5/12/2008)
David.Poole (5/5/2008)
Its a tricky one because on one hand you can ask the consumer what they would consider to be really cool. This is likely to lead to an evolutionary product.On the other hand you think you have a "eureka" moment that has a 99% chance of falling flat on its face and a 1% chance of producing a revolutionary product.
QFT. Anyone who has seen an episode of that terrible TV show "American Inventor" can attest to this. 😀
I have been trying to catch that and "Pantent Bending" as well. Thinking about David's comments made me think about cars again. Tucker, Edsel, etc. Hughes played with steam cars for a while
ATBCharles Kincaid
December 26, 2012 at 7:23 am
Several years ago Microsoft and other went out of their way to promote education. They talked about a need for tech workers and how they could not find the employees they needed.
Then the resession hit and they immediatly laid off 5000 people.
If you can't find the people you need and you have 50 billion in reserve why would you lay off people?
Simiple, it has nothing to do with people but what you pay them. The more people with CS degrees the less you have to pay them.
Mike
December 26, 2012 at 7:34 am
I can't see why he is rangint about MS and Google pay scales. They can only hire so many people, and since the market in general cannot support such astronomical figures, there are plenty of decent quality people in the real world. MS and Google cannot create a shortage.
BTW after a year of working at it, my son got into Google software development (even though his major was electrical engineering).
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-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
December 28, 2012 at 7:33 am
Relatively few companies have lost employees or potential candidates to Microsoft or Google. If you're looking for competent or even talented programmers who will work for under 100k, they are certainly out there. Beside that, a lot of the college grads who go to work for Microsoft and Google become even better programmers from the experience and go on to start their own companies.
If I had to make a Top 20 list of issues confronting the IT community, this wouldn't make the cut.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
January 2, 2013 at 12:21 pm
Who are these people making 75-100K writing software right out of college? I have been doing it professionally for over a decade and still am nowhere near 6 figures.
Jay Bienvenu | http://bienv.com | http://twitter.com/jbnv
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