May 17, 2008 at 12:34 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item The Best Way to Find Quality People
May 19, 2008 at 5:29 am
Down in my part of the world, skilled people are leaving for Australia and New Zealand at an ever-increasing rate. 2 friends of mine (both skilled IT people) have left this year.
It's nice for the local consultants who have work queued up for 6 months or more (at least most of the ones I know do), not so nice for the full-time guys overworked and understaffed.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 19, 2008 at 6:44 am
I think that Human Competitive Nature has shifted from survival to desires. The grass always looks greener on the other side and thus people are inclined to move jobs\companies. Often times when frustrated with your current employer you begin to compare them to others and you compare the bads of your home company to all the goods of the other company. This is all good and well as you need to sell yourself on moving but once in the new position you will begin to grumble about that companies issues. You really now need to pick a company with issues that fit your needs best instead of seeking the golden ticket which really doesn't exist. It may in the short term but don't worry. In todays shifting economy and squished profits and anything to get ahead mentality even the 'good' companies will have to do something whcih the employees find stifling and stuffy business suit actions.
what a pesimistic rant... sorry.
I have also found that in this disire to have the higher income and less work and better benefits and every other variable in the perfect world we are shaping younger generations. The youth graduating from college now vs 10 or even 5 years ago have a significanlty different work ethic which I think drives their job hopping. They don't know what true dedication is nor hard work. They have been taught over and over again that they need to be happy and non committal to a company. Don't be oppressed by 'the man' This is a great philosophy but what isn't realized is the societal issues this can cause.
I had looked at the greener grass but fortunately requested a 'second interview' of sorts. Once the position was offered I asked to talk to several folks about the atmosphere, company, etc. Once you read through the sales pitch i found that it really wouldn't be any different that where i was at the time. I chose to stay where i was which was a much better decision in the long run as i have a lot i want to accomplish here yet. Dedication and longevity are important to me.
We have found that we have major issues finding qualified personell. We have held positions open for very long periods of time with minimal applicants that are qualified at a minimal level let a lone a hire-able level. Location has a lot to do with it. I look at it this way... If you can hire someone with drive, consistency and desire as well as a strong ability to learn you can train and groom. Sometimes that is more important than the knowledge they come in with.
May 19, 2008 at 6:49 am
After I graduated from a two year college I took an entry level position here back in 1985. I slowly moved up the ladder and 7 or so promotions since I am still here. I have seen alot of change in IT and people as well. A DBA came here in 2003 and left late last year thinking the grass was greener elsewhere. Earlier this year he emailed me asking if the position had been filled as he wanted to come back.
May 19, 2008 at 7:02 am
Interesting diversion yet somewhat on topic. Do you take the person back who is seeking greener grass?
I don't feel the money game should be played. Counter offers are tricky. Are they staying\returning to help the company succeed or just for greed and then will leverage the new wage at another company in a few months.
It is a scary thing to take someone back. I think it is ok as long as you assume they will be leaving again soon.
May 19, 2008 at 7:05 am
8 Ways to Bridge the IT Skills Gap brings up some valid points.
1 - Invest in Training
Toastmasters is a great continuing education and affordable program to help people develop their communication and leadership skills. It won't help one to develop their SQL Server skills or .Net, but it does help develop "people skills". There is an advanced manual called Technical Presentations that will help those in IT.
4 - Take advantage of the wisdom of age...
As a 50-something person with over 30 years of experience in IT and computers, I agree with that bit of advice. My current employer was willing to hire me though I didn't have experience with .Net, I had many years of C++ programming and they wanted that knowledge to leverage in C#.
May 19, 2008 at 7:31 am
GilaMonster (5/19/2008)
Down in my part of the world, skilled people are leaving for Australia and New Zealand at an ever-increasing rate. 2 friends of mine (both skilled IT people) have left this year.It's nice for the local consultants who have work queued up for 6 months or more (at least most of the ones I know do), not so nice for the full-time guys overworked and understaffed.
Eh GilaMonster, it looks like we are from the same country. Thanks for a nice article, Steve. Employer/employee relations are like marriage. I is give and take. You have to give but then you also have to take. If the give or take is one sided then a separation is iminent. Does that make sense?
:-PManie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Holy Bible
I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times. - Everett Mckinley Dirkson (Well, I am trying. - Manie Verster)
May 19, 2008 at 7:34 am
From a personal standpoint, I can say that an employer who invests in their employee will be more likely to keep the employee. My previous employer invested reasonably well which made me valuable in the marketplace when it came time to look again. The training that was provided made me feel like I was a valuable member of the team. I had been with them for nearly 11 years before they poisoned the waters, forcing me to move.
It was a good move, however. Not only am I now able to expand greatly on my knowledge, there is a future for personal and professional growth here that didn't exist with my previous employer. My new employer, although only two months into the position (contract to hire at this point), is sending me to a very expensive three day training to help me do my job here more effectively. I am, of course, VERY intrinsically motivated to do my best so they will convert me to their payroll but seeing that they are willing to spend money on me this early in my employment here is very encouraging.
They are also a good group to work with. The pressure is high but that is offset by the relaxed nature of my new coworkers (including my new boss). Was the grass greener on the other side? From a salary standpoint, only $3,000 annually. It is nice to have the additional income and while the total benefits package is actually a little less than what I had before, the environment was well worth the change.
May 19, 2008 at 8:02 am
Robert Hermsen (5/19/2008)
Interesting diversion yet somewhat on topic. Do you take the person back who is seeking greener grass?I don't feel the money game should be played. Counter offers are tricky. Are they staying\returning to help the company succeed or just for greed and then will leverage the new wage at another company in a few months.
It is a scary thing to take someone back. I think it is ok as long as you assume they will be leaving again soon.
The money game is a nasty one, with most of the cards in the employer's hands. There are precious few jobs here in the US being posted with even a salary range (I'd say well less than 10%), so there's a guessing game going on. You're usually asked for and expected to supply your previous salary history on top of it all, so the prospective "holds" all of the cards. Let the games begin...
There are lots of reasons to leave certain situations, not all of which have anything to do with money. I've had to leave a few jobs I truly "loved" but who had no respect whatsoever for work/life balance, and who ultimately had no "incentive" to fix the long-term issues they had. With all due respect - I am entitled to NOT be indentured to my employer, especially when they're doing well financially, have the resources to make workloads reasonable, and have at their avail multiple , reasonable cost solutions for making things better.
Finding a niche where you can stay a long time, grow a little/a lot, do something worthy, now THAT's a challenge these days. FINDING quality people is easy once you figure out how to KEEP quality people. If you keep "bleeding" good people, it might be worth looking inward to find out why your org can't retain them. Far too few places really put in the effort to shape, encourage and grow their good people (and yes - it's absolutely a shared effort).
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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
May 19, 2008 at 8:03 am
As for the younger generation job-hopping more than my (previous) generation yes I think that is true and is partly due to a culture of instant gratification and not being prepared to wait for advancement if they have done a good job, but companies are merely reaping the harvest they have sown. For years now companies have banged on about there are no longer jobs for life, they have outsourced jobs, they have threatened people with redundancy rounds every couple of years, they have closed final salary pensions, and meanwhile the executives have enriched themselves.
So people have reacted to the message of we have no loyalty to you (as a group) by having less loyalty to 'the company' . They are just reacting to market forces, and who can blame them?
If you have found a job where the above is not true, or you just plain enjoy the work\colleagues\opportunities, then stay there.
Just my tuppence worth 🙂
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May 19, 2008 at 9:24 am
My first thought after reading the article was "right on!".
After reading some of the comments, I guess I have to add that for this to work, you have to have a good HR person who can be aware of competetive compensaton packages. It seems that there twp polarities here. First is "I train them and mentor them, and then I expect them to work for slave wages since I've been so benevolent to them". The second is, "You train them and mentor them, and I'll siphon them off once they show some potential" (!) It seems that something in the middle would make for a solid work force.
I do feel bad for people from countries with weaker currencies who watch as their "brain pool" trickles off to other lands. I'm not sure what the answer is...
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May 19, 2008 at 10:55 am
I find myself in a position where I am plannning on starting job hunting soon. The company I currently work for is a very pleasant place to work. Top management obviously gives a darn about the employees. I'm valued by management and co-workers. But, I'm not getting paid enough to accomplish what I need to in terms of debts, bills, and savings (I'm in the bottom 20% of DBA pay both locally and nationwide), and, perhaps more importantly, I'm seriously bored and this job is going nowhere slowly.
I'm not sure how I got into a job where I don't have enough to do, and management doesn't have more for me to do (despite requests from me). I'm unaccustomed to a lack of projects, having spent the last 20+ years usually having way too much to do and not enough time to do it.
But the more I look, the less future there is for me here. It's hard to make the decision to leave, since I really like the people I work for (and that's worth more than a little cut in pay, in my opinion), but if someone in management were to ask me to justify my salary right now, I wouldn't be able to.
This also ties in to the idea of finding/creating quality people. (I like to think I'm a high quality worker, and various managers/executives I've worked with have agreed with me on that.) You can't just find them/train them, whatever, and then not give them something worth doing. At least, it seems that way to me. Even the promise of interesting/worthwhile stuff in the finite future would be good.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
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May 20, 2008 at 12:02 am
GSquared (5/19/2008)
perhaps more importantly, I'm seriously bored and this job is going nowhere slowly.
That's the no.1 reason I gave my boss when I told him I would be leaving later this year.
The job pays well, the people are lovely, management (mostly) keeps out of the way, though that's changing now. However I'm getting bored. The most challenge I have in a week is from these forums, and I need challenge.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
May 20, 2008 at 1:01 am
...The way we found a quality person...
We had the luxuary of time to fill a position, so with this time this is what we did:
Position to be filled: DBA Administrator
Entry Test
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Armed with our entry test, a "basic" 6 question test all prospective candidates must take.
This test covers the basic DBA Admin functions of:
* Query writing
* Backups
* Scheduled Job error / security related
* SSIS / DTS basics
* Database Options
* Table properties - dbcc operation
We searched for almost 4 months without finding a decent candidate that could fulfil the position.
The candidates that were coming were mainly new job seekers with training on SQL - but almost no experience.
The average score for the test was 2/10 for these candidates.
After 35 candidates the recruitment agency called and said we must be looking for someone that does not have these skills and needed some more input.
We eventually in the 5th month had interviews with 2 candidates that scored 6/10 which was good enough to be taken onto the first round of interviews.
Technical vs Client Focused
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Once you have identified candidates as having the technical skills - now ensure that they will fit the team and be able to work with other divisions within the business and do so with the client in mind.
Of the 2 candidates 1 of them prefered to stay after hours and do research into specific issues to learn and understand the problems.
The other candidate was very client focused and professional in his nature.
The interviews took place with both candidates and after the 2 rounds we had got to know each candidate and chose the client focused guy.
If it was not for our initial screening "SQL" test we would have hired a non technical learner that has had no experience - yet they look like seasoned DBA's from their CV (resume)
Thanks
Kevin
May 20, 2008 at 1:27 am
People so often seem to forget that employment is just another commercial transaction. If the cost of doing business outweighs the benefits accrued, the disadvantaged party will cease trading. Yes, an employee normally demands more than just monetary benefits, and yes, the company has similarly nebulous expectations over and above the formal job spec, but the balance is still there.
And just like any other successful commercial partnership, if there is a willingness on both sides to accommodate changes, the partnership will thrive. Looking around the department in which I currently work, consisting of about 30 people, about half have been with this company for at least 5 years, and off the top of my head 9 of those to my knowledge have been around for 10 years plus (including me). Good potential is certainly difficult to find, but I'm not sure it's any more difficult than it used to be, and the company in which I work is just one of many testaments to the fact that it's not as difficult as one might expect to keep good people once they've been found.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
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