September 3, 2012 at 9:50 pm
Comments posted to this topic are about the item Ridiculous
September 3, 2012 at 10:38 pm
I havent been to a Defcon so cant speak from first hand experience.
Neither apparently can Valerie.
I read her article and she has plenty of second and third hand stories of harrassment but none of her own. She says nothing quite as bad happened to her, but what exactly did happen to her? No detail, not very compelling - maybe she just has a grudge and wants to bad mouth the whole thing.
September 3, 2012 at 11:18 pm
mtucker-732014 (9/3/2012)
I havent been to a Defcon so cant speak from first hand experience.Neither apparently can Valerie.
I read her article and she has plenty of second and third hand stories of harrassment but none of her own. She says nothing quite as bad happened to her, but what exactly did happen to her? No detail, not very compelling - maybe she just has a grudge and wants to bad mouth the whole thing.
Wow!! That's fairly damning in it's turn! Are you saying that someone 'close' to a topic is not entitled to report on it? Are you, perhaps, suggesting that none of the allegations are true? Since you've never attended DefCon and aren't providing any evidence to corroborate your 'shoot from the hip' supposition; I have to say you're on considerably shakier ground than Valerie!
September 3, 2012 at 11:34 pm
I dont need to have been to Defcon to write about an article that someone has written. My evidence is Valerie's article, which as you can see if you read it, contains only references to things that might have happened to unnamed people which she heard about second hand.
September 4, 2012 at 12:01 am
I'm not even sure why you bothered to comment on this thread in the first place. Valerie's article was written in her capacity as founder of the Ada Initiative, bringing together a number of experiences in order to highlight an ongoing issue; that of some women enduring harrassment in some male dominated environments.
I don't believe that she sought to do anything else; she wasn't trying to make herself a victim or even, as far as I can see, to dramatise it. I can neither confirm nor deny that this kind of thing happens at DefCon as I've never had the opportunity to go either. It seems such a stretch, though, for you to come to the conclusion that she must have a grudge in order to write this article. A grudge against whom/what/why?
September 4, 2012 at 2:47 am
mtucker-732014 (9/3/2012)
I dont need to have been to Defcon to write about an article that someone has written. My evidence is Valerie's article, which as you can see if you read it, contains only references to things that might have happened to unnamed people which she heard about second hand.
I have to agree with MissTipps here - do you really need gory details? I might question your own motives for prurience if that is the case. I am only semi-acquainted with hacker culture from some of my further flung peeps but I can certainly believe in a 'constant barrage of sexual insults' from what I do understand - it is clearly more testosterone fuelled and willy waving than corporate IT, which can have such undertones.
Anyhow if you did bother to read Valerie's post she is certainly not bad mouthing the whole thing AFAICS, just worn down by a 'sexist atmosphere' and I think she is far more credible than you are coming across.
September 4, 2012 at 6:38 am
from one of the linked articles' comment sections:
"Who I really wish would grow up at DEFCON is the EFF. Once again they have a fund raiser in which one of the prizes is a picture with one of the strippers DEF CON hires every year. "
So this conference hires strippers?
September 4, 2012 at 7:08 am
Wow, that's some rather shocking behaviour, whether at a conference or not. I'm not perfect but I've never tried licking a random woman's shoulder.
A friend of mine was conducting a telephone interview for a developer position with another female collegue a while back. It went well until the very end where the male applicant made a comment:
"I found it stimulating to be interviewed by ladies because software is men's work and women should not be discriminated against even though they are not as experienced"
Needless to say they hung up on him and he did not receive an offer. We should have more discrimination against discriminators, less shoulder licking.
September 4, 2012 at 7:18 am
Thanks for bringing this to our attention Steve. I have been following a similar discussion in the atheist community about a woman being offered "coffee" in an elevator at 3 AM. Richard Dawkins weighed in and the whole went viral (within that community), tagged "elevator gate".
Anyway, the point is, that was mild compared to this. It opened an important discussion though. One that needs to be had.
I suspect this thread will get out of hand very quickly. There will be some Neanderthals weighing in on this. It will be an opportunity to educate, but I won't be attempting to argue with them or to change their minds.
September 4, 2012 at 7:36 am
I must admit that abuse, in any form against any victim, really gets my blood boiling! I worked alongside a really thoughtful, creative, and intelligent woman who was quite skillful despite her lack of experience. Over the 5 years that I worked with her, she grew in skill, confidence and talent. Her only fault that I noticed was that she didn't take enough credit for her own skills and knowledge. I realize that was partly due to humility but also partly due to not recognizing her own talent.
People like this NEED to be encouraged and supported!! There is no room for sexism, abuse, hatred, or any other negative behavior! When such abuse occurs, we ALL loose!
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September 4, 2012 at 8:21 am
Steve,
I hope you continue to write about this. You use good judgement and raise important concerns. I especially like that you revisited the topic after a time to give another perspective.
September 4, 2012 at 8:30 am
Robert.Sterbal (9/4/2012)
Steve,I hope you continue to write about this. You use good judgement and raise important concerns. I especially like that you revisited the topic after a time to give another perspective.
Thanks
September 4, 2012 at 8:31 am
I've not seen this behavior at the SQL Server events I've gone to, but then again I'm not female. Hopefully DBAs and database developers are a bit more mature than "hackers" due to the nature of their jobs and the responsibility their roles required.
September 4, 2012 at 8:34 am
Sexual harrassment and groping is a problem, but I'm not convinced it's characteristic to Defcon or the IT industry in general. Googling CONVENTION GROPING INCIDENT, there are tons of hits. A lot of guys at conventions (wether it be an IT conference, a politicl conference, or sales convention) tend to get drunk or for whatever reason feel free to let themselves go and behave in ways that they ordinarily wouldn't at the office. Whenever something like this happens, I think those bystanders should step up and point out to the perp the error of his ways. This is something that can be corrected by social pressure.
Regarding the Defcon convention specifically, I think it's worth mentioning that not everyone there are from a professional background. A significant percentage of the attendees are literally kids who havn't fully matured yet.
"Do not seek to follow in the footsteps of the wise. Instead, seek what they sought." - Matsuo Basho
September 4, 2012 at 8:48 am
Eric M Russell (9/4/2012)
A lot of guys at conventions tend to get drunk or for whatever reason feel free to let themselves go and behave in ways that they ordinarily wouldn't at the office.
I believe that serving alcohol at such conventions (or even office parties) is a really bad idea. People's behavior appears to change due to alcohol because it releases their inhibitions and self-control allowing their inner demons free reign for awhile. When a person is drunk you get a more complete picture of who they really are inside without their sober mind keeping guard. Social settings only compound the issue especially when folks have to face the consequences the next day.
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