September 4, 2013 at 11:20 am
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
Now on the other hand, this leaves poor slobs like me who has to explain to management why I want what the community calls "excellent, exceptional practices, knowledge attained by the rare and few" when in reality I'd rather this be the norm or the "barely acceptable" practices and the "exceptional DBA" phenom and the MCM certification in my opinion work against this. Sure, I'm not going to let hundreds of "no lock" queries and nerve wracking last minute ad-lib systems and practices dissuade me from any job I happen to be at, but it really underscores how unlike you guys I am. I just thought I'd throw that out there as maybe an example and rational of how little relevence Gails rant has in my job. Maybe if it were called "Microsoft Certified Mandatory" I'd feel a bit different.
Not quite sure what you mean here. You lost me. Is it that the MCM and those skills are relevant to your job? Or they're overkill?
September 4, 2013 at 12:05 pm
In the interest of trying to light a candle in the darkness I'd like to throw out a question particularly to the existing MCMs and other long-term veterans. You've traveled a long, expensive road to get where you are and you've gained a lot along the way.
How would you go about designing from scratch a certification or series of certifications or whatever that would give a reasonable indication the bearer knows their stuff? I'm thinking beyond just taking tests and even doing labs, though those two elements certainly would be included at some level. What other requirements/pre-requisites could be included? No system will ever be 100% guarantee of competency, but enough so that whether an individual is entry level or a "DBA Yoda" or anywhere in between you can be reasonably confident in their abilites at that particular level.
I'll go back over to my seat in the cheap seats of the peanut gallery and let you all have at it.
____________
Just my $0.02 from over here in the cheap seats of the peanut gallery - please adjust for inflation and/or your local currency.
September 4, 2013 at 12:16 pm
WayneS (9/4/2013)
ccd3000 (9/4/2013)
My sympathies to all. That was the first certification I ever took seriously from Microsoft. Could PASS or some other independent professional group have their own complementary certification? Assuming MS would go along with it. After this they may have no choice.Doing so would be extremely expensive. I don't see anyone else with the pockets to do so. Remember that these "pinnacle certifications" are for just the very top, and yet they will be the most expensive to create and maintain. Not to mention the expense to keep it from being brain-dumped or boot-camped. No business would do this on their own - they'll lose money.
PASS struggles to make ends meet. When the yearly Summit is their main revenue generation, you can see that they won't have the resources to take this on. The only company that I would feel would be reputable enough to do this right is SQLSkills, and as mentioned they would lose money doing so.
MS needs to see the value in having these advanced certs, and how having these folks with the advanced certs influences how companies will buy their licenses - as in, they'll buy more.
If you are interested in what else that I have to say about this, I've blogged about it[/url].
I'm not convinced it isn't something that PASS couldn't tackle in an open-source, business model way. Maybe even make it a non-profit entity for the tax breaks. They can get creative. It's also more lab based so rote memorization is only going to get you so far (boot camps, brain dumps etc.). Getting certified by your peers is far more meaningful in my opinion.
September 4, 2013 at 12:28 pm
September 4, 2013 at 12:36 pm
For someone who wants to achieve a MCM Certification one day, this news has killed the sole purpose of their goal! :angry:
Can someone tell microsoft that many are not happy with the decision?
September 4, 2013 at 12:49 pm
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (9/4/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
Now on the other hand, this leaves poor slobs like me who has to explain to management why I want what the community calls "excellent, exceptional practices, knowledge attained by the rare and few" when in reality I'd rather this be the norm or the "barely acceptable" practices and the "exceptional DBA" phenom and the MCM certification in my opinion work against this. Sure, I'm not going to let hundreds of "no lock" queries and nerve wracking last minute ad-lib systems and practices dissuade me from any job I happen to be at, but it really underscores how unlike you guys I am. I just thought I'd throw that out there as maybe an example and rational of how little relevence Gails rant has in my job. Maybe if it were called "Microsoft Certified Mandatory" I'd feel a bit different.
Not quite sure what you mean here. You lost me. Is it that the MCM and those skills are relevant to your job? Or they're overkill?
Well how about looking at it like this: I see no shortage of folks typing "MCM is the only cert I respect." Maybe I should be asking whats wrong with the lower level certs? When you get to the top of the database heap, wouldn't that be somehow apparent without having to have a cert? Wouldn't Microsoft be better served by making sure most DBAs have acceptable practices rather than making sure a few are "masters?"
So why do we only respect the MCM?
September 4, 2013 at 1:04 pm
So why do we only respect the MCM?
Because it's broad and practical and requires years of real actual quality experience to pass. (Give me enough study time and I could pass most of the other lower DBA tests, even though I'm not a DBA.)
Have you ever met and talked to a MCM? Smart MoFos that know the product.
September 4, 2013 at 1:21 pm
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
Maybe I should be asking whats wrong with the lower level certs?
Braindumps, bootcamps, not technically rigorous. For example, there's only one exam to test a candidate's ability to admin a database (70-462 I think it is). It's about 30 questions (multiple choice) long. How much can that realistically test?
I've interviewed people with MCITP: SQL Server Administration before who couldn't explain how to back up a database, what backup types existed or how to check if a backup succeeded.
There have been numerous posts in these forums from people with MS alphabet soup in their sigs asking how to write dead-simple, basic, beginner queries.
Wouldn't Microsoft be better served by making sure most DBAs have acceptable practices rather than making sure a few are "masters?"
How would they go about that?
I'd love the lower-level certs to be respected. I'd love to be able to interview someone with a lower-level MS cert and have some confidence that he knows the material that cert covers and that I don't have to doubt whether or not he obtained the cert 'legitimately'. I have no idea how that could be achieved though
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
September 4, 2013 at 1:49 pm
I've never understood why the pool of questions for the certs is so low. I'm not sure about 2008 exams but the old NT exams that I took and the sql 2005 exams had a pool of about 150 questions. Easily braindumpable. make a pool of a few thousand questions and then it becomes lower in probability that someone memorizes all the questions. I Understand that writing and vetting all those questions becomes more of a challenge, but if MS wants people to respect the certs then they have to put in the work. Just like If I want peer respect from other DBAs then I also have to put in the time and effort.
Even the 5 exams needed for the MCSE bugs me(I seriously hate that they brought the MCSE back. I likes the MCTS & ITP better). That's a lot of cash and time for someone like me that has little of either. I could probably do them all with little studying but I'm paranoid and only want to write them once, so I grossly overstudy...
With 2014 out next year, will I even bother with 2012? I'm not going to spend my life studying and writing upgrade exams.
September 4, 2013 at 1:57 pm
GilaMonster (9/4/2013)
How would they go about that?
I'd love the lower-level certs to be respected. I'd love to be able to interview someone with a lower-level MS cert and have some confidence that he knows the material that cert covers and that I don't have to doubt whether or not he obtained the cert 'legitimately'. I have no idea how that could be achieved though
Are we really saying that its impossible to put together a decent exam for any skill level we desire EXCEPT for the MCM?
Please tell me I'm simply not understanding what you're trying to say.
September 4, 2013 at 2:05 pm
GilaMonster (9/4/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
Maybe I should be asking whats wrong with the lower level certs?Braindumps, bootcamps, not technically rigorous. For example, there's only one exam to test a candidate's ability to admin a database (70-462 I think it is). It's about 30 questions (multiple choice) long. How much can that realistically test?
I've interviewed people with MCITP: SQL Server Administration before who couldn't explain how to back up a database, what backup types existed or how to check if a backup succeeded.
There have been numerous posts in these forums from people with MS alphabet soup in their sigs asking how to write dead-simple, basic, beginner queries.
Wouldn't Microsoft be better served by making sure most DBAs have acceptable practices rather than making sure a few are "masters?"
How would they go about that?
I'd love the lower-level certs to be respected. I'd love to be able to interview someone with a lower-level MS cert and have some confidence that he knows the material that cert covers and that I don't have to doubt whether or not he obtained the cert 'legitimately'. I have no idea how that could be achieved though
Spot on. This has always been my major bone of contention with these exams. They are just too easy to illegitimately compromise by using braindumps, etc. As long as that exists then the certs don't mean very much IMHO.:-D
"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ...:-D"
September 4, 2013 at 2:23 pm
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
GilaMonster (9/4/2013)
How would they go about that?
I'd love the lower-level certs to be respected. I'd love to be able to interview someone with a lower-level MS cert and have some confidence that he knows the material that cert covers and that I don't have to doubt whether or not he obtained the cert 'legitimately'. I have no idea how that could be achieved though
Are we really saying that its impossible to put together a decent exam for any skill level we desire EXCEPT for the MCM?
You're saying that. No one else is.
I said I have no idea how to achieve a low level cert (which must be very scalable, cheap, easily accessible, easily marked) that can be respected. Maybe we should ask the certification people at Cisco for some advice.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
September 4, 2013 at 2:29 pm
I think it's possible, but I'm not sure MS should do it. I'm also not sure the skills being targeted or the software design lends itself to evaluating people's skills.
Ultimately I think they should be doing simulations, allowing users to click through SSMS or enter some code that evaluates if they can solve a problem. Asking multiple guess questions isn't the way to do it.
I believe the lower CISCO certs suffer from the same problems, but it isn't as noticeable due to scale. You don't hire a lot of networking people, and there isn't the scale that makes it worth cheating (for the answer providers) as much.
September 4, 2013 at 5:18 pm
GilaMonster (9/4/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
GilaMonster (9/4/2013)
How would they go about that?
I'd love the lower-level certs to be respected. I'd love to be able to interview someone with a lower-level MS cert and have some confidence that he knows the material that cert covers and that I don't have to doubt whether or not he obtained the cert 'legitimately'. I have no idea how that could be achieved though
Are we really saying that its impossible to put together a decent exam for any skill level we desire EXCEPT for the MCM?
You're saying that. No one else is.
I said I have no idea how to achieve a low level cert (which must be very scalable, cheap, easily accessible, easily marked) that can be respected. Maybe we should ask the certification people at Cisco for some advice.
Well you did say that the MCM no longer has the cost or logistical barriers to the extent that it once did, so this means that the MCM should be considered more affordable and accessible. Easily marked doesn't seem to be necessarily an impossible barrier. Whats left I suppose is the "scalability" aspect and if you ommit the instructional part, you are pretty much just left with a test. Then you figure out the costs of the tests and you charge for that. Heck, you don't even need that, theres companies that already have the scalability bit done, they're already offering a significant number of testing centers and for that matter I'm sure they know how to mark a test. They've certainly figured out cost structures to such an extent to remain in business.
September 4, 2013 at 5:35 pm
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
Easily marked doesn't seem to be necessarily an impossible barrier. .... for that matter I'm sure they know how to mark a test.
The lab exam (which is the part of the MCM exams that made it hard to game/cheat since you had to actually sit down and do stuff) had to be hand-marked by someone who knew the material. It couldn't be marked by a computer as someone had to go through the completed lab (a virtual machine) and check what was done, it couldn't be marked by the Prometric people as they weren't familiar with the material being tested. From what I heard it took longer to mark than to write.
Eliminate the lab and you have a multiple choice exam that can be braindumped (as the current low level ones are). Keep the lab and it's not scalable to the thousands that would be the target for low level exams without hiring loads of people to mark, and that makes it more expensive to run, pass the costs to the candidates and you have an exam that's too expensive.
The MCM was $3000. While a far cry from the initial cost for training rotations, it's still well above the $100 or so that the MCSE/A/D/whatever exams are.
It it were a simple problem someone (MS/Oracle/Cisco/Prometric/someone else) would have solved it a long time ago and we wouldn't be having this discussion.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
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