October 18, 2007 at 9:36 am
Well put, Paul and I agree. You shouldn't be obligated to go all the time, but you should make an effort to be a part of the group. Never hurts to try something new.
October 18, 2007 at 11:52 am
I started reading those 'self-help', 'motivational' book since I was 20. The first one I read was 'What color is your parachute' and then a whole bunch of books written by Leo Buscaglia, 'Think Positively',
I even read the "7 habits of highly effective people" and "1 minute manager" series. But those are books, the examples might be real but they were not remotely related to my situation. Those books are good but I don't find them helpful.
My personality, my background and my past experiences built up today's 'ME'. I was in this country alone at 17. I made a lot of mistakes and wrong decisions. I suffered the consequences, I had to correct my own mistakes and no one there to guide me or help me. My character mostly built up by all the mistakes I made.
At least not one of you suggest me to read the 'Bible' or Rick Warren's 'The Purpose Driven Life'. A lot of my friends are Christians. If I told them my problem, the first thing they did was 'Let's pray'. I could not even say anything, every sentence had the word 'God' in it. That's why I said I had no friend to talk to including my devoted Christian husband. The first time I knew I married the wrong guy was when I was sick I needed to see the doctor and the copay was $40. I did not have a job at that time. He did not want me to go because he needed to donate the money to the church.
I put out the post to blow out some of my anger as I said before. The new manager did said in front of me that he wanted to micromanage me. I hated micro-manager but usually I could due with them. They just wanted to know the details of how I did my project. But he went a little bit too far, he read my codes and did not agree with my codes.
There are many ways to write a query, he wanted me to write the way he wrote which I thought his codes were awful. One time he handed me a project and told me he wrote a procedure template and I had to follow it. I felt it was an insult. First he did not trust me I could handle the project and second he did not respect me my technical skills. The worst part was I found out the one he wrote had a fraud. It would cause a problem. Sure it created a deadlock. Instead of changing to a different methods, he just told everyone to put 'NO LOCK' in all the SELECT statement. I was stubborn and refused to use his method anymore. As far as the team, one of them liked to point finger to other people when he made a mistake or he would say he was new to the company even he worked there for over a year. He had to write a parent-child relationship query, and he used more than 1 cursor to do it and it took 26 hours to run. I wrote one and it took 2 sec to run. I told him and he refused to listen even the other co-worker said my query was good. He insisted that the only way was using the cursor. There were two other women in the group were not good at SQL, so they relied on the new manager to tell them how to write the query. My new manager thought I would be the same but I was not, actually I told him how to write a query. His ego could not handle it and started picking on me. My other co-worker was the same, he rather let the query run 26 hours than listening to me because I was a woman, that was how I felt.
All the situations I encountered for the last few years was terrible, I lost confidence in people. They just wanted to protect their jobs. I did not want to socialize with them because I did not want to get in trouble. But no matter what I did or what I said, I got into trouble.
The one who should read the books were my manager and my co-workers. It took two to tangle.
I knew I made mistake but I was not the only one, both of us made mistakes. I refused to comprise in some way because I did not want people walk over me again. Did I do the wrong thing again?
October 18, 2007 at 12:03 pm
Only you can say if you did the right or wrong thing. You have to decide what your principles are and how much it's worth sticking to them.
The books, talks, etc. can only help you to determine what your ideals and principles are. They can't give them to you.
For what it's worth, it sounds like it was a bad fit for you in this job. In that case, I'm not sure it's worth sticking around. Arguments are just that and you have to decide to what level it's worth arguing and when it's not. It's an individual decision to do work they don't believe in if told to or to disagree, even to the point of losing a job. It's not right or wrong, it's your opinion and decision.
October 18, 2007 at 1:01 pm
They forced me to sign the resignation letter so I did not work for them anymore.
There is an old Chinese saying 'Everywhere you go, the flowers look the same'.
That means no matter what company I work for, the managers and the co-workers are the same, I can only play dump to survive.
This is what I want to convey, this is today's business world especially for woman developer, no wonder more and more women left IT. You have to work twice as hard to prove you can work, and then some old hard head ego male manager or co-worker would be jealous and give you a hard time. If you are dump, then they say all the female developers are dump and tell the management that they are the ones who delay the project. Either way you cannot win.
Every word you say can be interpret into many different meanings depending who is the listener. I just said someone had trouble doing a simple query and I was curious about that, my manager immediately interpreted that I hated that co-worker. If you don't say anything, then you are not the team player either.
October 18, 2007 at 2:38 pm
Loner (10/18/2007)
They forced me to sign the resignation letter so I did not work for them anymore.There is an old Chinese saying 'Everywhere you go, the flowers look the same'.
That means no matter what company I work for, the managers and the co-workers are the same, I can only play dump to survive.
This is what I want to convey, this is today's business world especially for woman developer, no wonder more and more women left IT. You have to work twice as hard to prove you can work, and then some old hard head ego male manager or co-worker would be jealous and give you a hard time. If you are dump, then they say all the female developers are dump and tell the management that they are the ones who delay the project. Either way you cannot win.
Every word you say can be interpret into many different meanings depending who is the listener. I just said someone had trouble doing a simple query and I was curious about that, my manager immediately interpreted that I hated that co-worker. If you don't say anything, then you are not the team player either.
I need to stand up for the male developers here. What you're griping about should not be against male developers in general. That's the problem with many female developers who play the "it's tough for women" card - they play the disadvantaged soul. The reason why these particular female developers end up leaving is because they can't "play nicely with the boys" (so-to-speak). They're more "man-haters" or "damsel in distress" with chips on their shoulder than a professional developer and a team player.
And to clarify things, I *am* a female developer. There are two other female developers here, and we'll end up doing well. Why? Because we know how to do our job well and we know how to work with the guys. We don't play the damsel in distress. We play the resourceful co-worker whenever a problem comes up and one of us knows what's going on. And you know what - the guys do come to us whenever they have problems and we turn to them whenever we have questions too. It's a two-way street.
It's all about attitude, Loner. If you take a negative approach to everything, you'll wallow in misery and unhappiness. Sometimes, you have to try and see a positive. And if you can't see any positives, then maybe that business environment is not the right one for you.
October 18, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Sarah
I am saying 'ALL' male developers are liked that. I am saying the two men in that company having problem with female co-workers. The manager was not having problem with me alone, he had problem with another female co-worker ever since I started working for the company. They argued every other day.
I also have no problem working with male co-workers. In other jobs, we worked together, learned together and helped each other out.
I am not playing 'pity' card. As a matter of fact, I am proud of being a female developer. My working attitude was always the same. I was serious about my work and made sure my project was done right and on schedule. It was my manager who could not stand having someone better than him and he gave me a hard time. He was a developer who played a hard bargain when the company tried to hire him and he became a manager. He had no management skill at all. How could he tell me he was going to micro-manage me? He was the manager who supposed to plan and organize the project, instead he wrote a procedure as a template and told us to use it. As I said before, this showed me he did not trust me and respect me. The template had a fraud and the system went down. I went to the web and found the proof to him. Instead of changing to another way to do things, he told me not to go to the web anymore and should not trust the web site. At that moment I only person I did not trust and respect was him.
"The main characteristics of effective leadership are intelligence, integrity or loyalty, mystique, humor, discipline, courage, self sufficieny and confidence." quoted by James L. Fisher
John F. Kennedy
"Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other."
October 19, 2007 at 6:57 am
Nuf' said
Leadership Principles
Know yourself and seek self improvement
Be technically and tactically proficient
Seek responsibility and take responsibility for your actions
Make sound and timely decisions
Set the example
Know your people and look out for their welfare
Keep your people informed
Develop a sense of responsibility in your subordinates
Ensure that the task is understood, supervised, and accomplished
Train your people as a team
Employ your unit in accordance with its capabilities
Leadership Traits
Judgement - The ability to weigh facts and possible solutions on which to base sound decisions.
Justice - Giving reward and punishment according to merits of the case in question. The ability to administer a sytem of rewards and punishments impartially and consistently.
Dependability - The certainy of proper performance of duty.
Initiative - Taking action in the absence of orders.
Decisiveness - Ability to make decisions promptly and to announce them in clear, forceful, manner.
Tact - The ability to deal with others without creating offense.
Integrity - Uprightness of character and soundness of moral principles; includes the qualities of truthfulness and honesty.
Endurance - The mental and physical stamina measured by the ability to withstand pain, fatigue, stress and hardship.
Bearing - Creating a favorable impression in carriage, appearance and personal conduct at all times.
Unselfishness - Avoidance of providing one's own comfort and personal advancement at the expense of others.
Courage - The mental quality that recognizes fear of danger or criticism, but enables a man to proceed in the face of it with calmness and firmness.
Knowledge - Understanding of a science or an art. The range of one's information, including professional knowledge and an understanding of your Marines.
Loyalty - The quality of faithfulness to country, the Corps, the unit, to one's seniors, subordinates and peers.
Enthusiasm - The display of sincere interest and exuberance in the performance of duty.
October 19, 2007 at 7:25 am
Good morning Loner, just had to chime in again. During my years of experience I have been in many of the same situations, and on both sides of the coin. I have had female and male bosses that were on a crusade. Males that had not learned enough nor mature enough for the position they held. Females that bordered on feminazism. Being a male I have had to learn that women are just as capable and sometimes more so than I am. The one problem I can see from what I read is your grammar. Coming to America in your teens and being on your own shows that you are resourceful. Make sure your speech, grammar and writing are impeccable. Take a class on diction, speech, grammar. It is never too late, and will help you in the business world.
It is difficult to work for one person, be accepted, praised and encouraged, then another that does not and has flaws too blatant to ignore. But that is the case sometimes. It is not always easy to be the bigger person, but may be preferable to unemployment. Bide your time, things come back around and you will find the boss that can see beyond their own prejudices.
Loner (10/18/2007)
SarahI am saying 'ALL' male developers are liked that. I am saying the two men in that company having problem with female co-workers. The manager was not having problem with me alone, he had problem with another female co-worker ever since I started working for the company. They argued every other day.
I also have no problem working with male co-workers. In other jobs, we worked together, learned together and helped each other out.
I am not playing 'pity' card. As a matter of fact, I am proud of being a female developer. My working attitude was always the same. I was serious about my work and made sure my project was done right and on schedule. It was my manager who could not stand having someone better than him and he gave me a hard time. He was a developer who played a hard bargain when the company tried to hire him and he became a manager. He had no management skill at all. How could he tell me he was going to micro-manage me? He was the manager who supposed to plan and organize the project, instead he wrote a procedure as a template and told us to use it. As I said before, this showed me he did not trust me and respect me. The template had a fraud and the system went down. I went to the web and found the proof to him. Instead of changing to another way to do things, he told me not to go to the web anymore and should not trust the web site. At that moment I only person I did not trust and respect was him.
"The main characteristics of effective leadership are intelligence, integrity or loyalty, mystique, humor, discipline, courage, self sufficieny and confidence." quoted by James L. Fisher
John F. Kennedy
"Leadership and learning are indispensable to each other."
October 19, 2007 at 8:04 am
I hadn't thought about it too much, but I was probably immature in my early career. Over the years I have seen more and more woman in business all over and seen them treated differently.
My wife is in the IT field, though more on the consulting / sales side for most of her career, and she's successful and good at her job. But I see the issues that still come up.
It is hard being a woman in IT. I think there's still an old boys network and there's also an immature boys are better than girls club. Neither is true or accurate, but it's there.
And I think (can only project and imagine here) that it's hard for a woman to fit in with a bunch of men. You're often out numbered and there's the whole harassment thing.
Loner, you don't have to put up with that, but sometimes it's not worth the fight. My advice would be to learn from the last job, learn how bad things can be and think about warning signs or problems signals and look for them in the next interview. And when you interview, make sure you meet as many people as you can, walk around the office, and hopefully get at least 2 visits to size up personalities. Try to prevent this moving forward.
October 22, 2007 at 6:59 am
Thanks for all your support. I can't believe this thread creates so much response. I had problems with companies and managers before but this time I was particular angry because of one reason that I never mentioned.
When I was hired, my manager was in MN and the whole year I saw him only 4 times. However I managed to do a good job and almost every week he told me I did a good job and he gave me an outstanding review. In April the company announced an organizational change, my manager became the director of BI department and another guy became my manager. I was not too happy because I had worked with this guy before and his attitude and reputation did not impress me. Even since I started working in the company I heard this guy always had arguments with his female employees and he did not help them when they needed help. He also did not seem to understand the business, most of his projects were late. We had a big IT meeting and they hired a company to do team building exercise, he escaped out after the first 10 minutes and went back to his room to rest because he was party all night. Also I saw his database and his codes, it was liked a junior developer's work. So I was not impressed with him.
However I still thought I could handle the changes. Unfortunately I had pneumonia in May, it was a bad one. I did not need to go to the hospital but I saw my doctor 3 times in a week. After that I had to do blood test and chest X-ray to make sure I was fine. Six weeks later I had pneumonia again, this time my doctor sent me to a pulmonary specialist. No way a person could have pneumonia so often. I had so many tests and finally I was diagnosed having a chronic disease that my immune system attacking my lung just liked the disease lupus. The only solution was I had to take Prednisone (steroid) all the time. My old manager and my new manager knew all about this because I had to take so many sick days.
Prednisone has many side effects and sure I have those. First when I still had pneumonia when they found out. Just from walking from the parking lot to my office (about 3 minutes), I had to rest a while before I could start talking. I was short of breath all the time. It made me agitated, depressed and tired all them. Most of steroid made people increase appetite. I was the opposite, I could not eat.
At that time my new manager started giving me a hard time, told me I was doing everything wrong. His email was getting very harsh maybe I was interpreted this way due to my medication. I was working 12 to 14 hours a days. Sometimes I did not eat the day except drinking water. My doctor did not see me improving. Since I was very agitated, the more he criticized me, the more I fought back. Things were bad. My old manager did not help me, he even refused to ask HR to help the situation. He just kept saying I ruined the whole team spirit. Actually this was just going on about 3 weeks. He made me to resign.
I was particularly angry because I was a good worker. I am still a good worker. When you have pneumonia and work 12 to 14 hours a day, you think you can still have a good mood ? I was disappointed that the people were so insensitive. I had problem with this manager for 3 weeks and they forced me to resign. The other woman had problem with this manager for over 1 year and she was still employed. This was obvious my manager wanted to get rid of me. That was the reason why I was so angry with the whole ordeal.
Anyway I just read if I keep thinking about it, I will be miserable all the time so I decide to put it aside. Hopefully I can find a job and this was just another one of my life experience.
Again thanks for all your support and help.
October 22, 2007 at 7:03 am
Well stated Steve and good advice. Once bitten, twice shy. Going forward, Loner you have the opportunity to make sure the same thing doesn't happen again, initially. But as management moves around, you won't be able to decide who replaces the person that hired you. So I suggest, keeping in close contact with the person hiring you. When they are moving, through promotion or accepting another position, if the relationship is good, ask if you can move as well. Keep your resume polished and look for the signs. There is usually company scuttlebutt about what is going to happen. It is always a good idea to keep your options open and look for jobs that become available. What you are doing now, you can always do, just to a lesser degree. Looking for a job is now your job, once you accept a position, keep your irons in the fire. Network, stay in touch with people you interview with. Ask for pointers for improving your interview skills. Even if you are turned down for a position, doesn't mean you don't fit into something the manager has in mind at a later time. If the company is important enough for you to take the time to interview, maximize what you take away. Sometimes you can even turn the person interviewing you into someone that will help connect you to other sources.
October 22, 2007 at 7:11 am
Well, to be honest, I think you must be mad to go in to work with pnuemonia AND work 14 hours. Either or would be daft but both???
Your health is more important than any job; and you must have been spreading the disease to all and sundry. There are many jobs where you do not get sick pay but really.
:Whistling:
Madame Artois
October 22, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Actually in May when I had pneumonia, I had to breathe using neublizers and I had to stay home because I was coughing so bad that I threw up all the time. Still I got a call from my company, they wanted me to help to finish a project because the users was screaming. My manager was in the middle of moving from MN to NY and they could not find him. He and I were the only one knew how to do the project. So I was working the whole day at home while I was breathing using the neublizers. Not only no one appreciated my efforts, when I told HR, HR was yelling at me that I should tell my co-workers that I could not work. So on one hand they complained I was not a team player, on the other hand the company complained I was too dump.:angry:
October 23, 2007 at 3:36 am
Ye Loner, (he he he.....:D)
You are not dump;)
I can say this much.....;)
Cheers!
Sandy. (Keep Smiling...!!!)
--
October 23, 2007 at 1:51 pm
Well, I've not read every comment, but personally, I find going out for drinks or lunch or even a round of golf on a weekend with colleagues great fun. For me, I joined my company a couple months ago and the first day, the development team were celebrating and I was invited to dinner. It was great, all partners were invited - fortunately mine didn't come as it was short notice (but hey, I could at least enjoy myself! 😉 ).
But, in all seriousness, I find that I can work better with my colleagues when I know them as friends rather than colleagues. We only have a small open plan office, so its good to know each other as friends as well as colleagues.
But, I do state, this is down to personal preference. I like to go out and socialise with them and there are days when I just want to get home and have a beer with my wife....
Whatever happens Loner, all the best and keep your chin up!
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