November 22, 2005 at 9:21 am
Didn't founding fathers and Co. exterminate indians (that's probably one of Godly principals also)? Seems, those principals are still at work - kill, rob, grab, exploit.
November 22, 2005 at 9:30 am
Steve - Could you please give some specifics? Which "suspect" governments has Google done business with? When did they do the business and what was the transaction?
Same for Microsoft, etc.
Thanks.
November 22, 2005 at 9:30 am
Ethics is diseased.
Code of Ethics? Interesting topic. Does the U.S. government follow code of ethics? Shouldn't have used certain damned weapons against Iraq civilians, as Italian news agencies reported. If the government can't follow code of ethics, why do you just ask the U.S. firms to follow code of ethics? Just because they are weaker than the government?
In my observation, we may only ask ourselves to follow code of ethics.
November 22, 2005 at 9:44 am
Ladies and Gentleman, the last time a universal code of ethics was needed we got the Catholic Church. And that's half the problem. What is morality to you may be suppression to me. The only universal code that makes any sense is "Do that which is right" but who decides what is right? Perhaps we ALL need to go back and study the "Contract with Society" and some choice John Locke.
Scott
November 22, 2005 at 10:00 am
I liked the post about a conscious. And I pretty much agree with that. We try to run SQLServerCentral.com as we would want to be treated. If we have a doubt about a business decision that may not be the "right" thing to do, then we stay away.
And it's cost us lots of $$ over the years, but I think we've built something that we are proud of. Perhaps a little poorer, but it's a relative debate. We have still made money and are better off as a business.
As far as who companies have done business with? China for one. They have a fairly abysmal record of respecting human rights. Wal-Mart applies here as does Yahoo in terms of respecting the laws of China and causing harm to an individual. Wal-Mart also has deliberately structured its employment practices for its maximum profit but personal detriment. Keeping people at part-time work so they cannot get benefits, discrimination, crushing small businesses and their own suppliers at times. To be fair, Google seems to be heading down these roads, but I haven't seen direct evidence of it. Time will tell there, but I'm inherently not trustful of companies that grow so large that they become an investment to be managed and not a business.
Business is not way. And it's an insult to those who have fought in war to view it that way. Business is about providing a service or product and "trading" it. There is room for multiple companies to prosper and grow in any space. competition is good, and it does drive a company to do better, but you do not usually have to have the we destroy them mentality to succeed. You can both succeed, perhaps one more than the other, but both can turn a profit.
My point with the editorial was more that companies should be guided by the moral compass of their leaders, and that would include the churches of the world. They should place an equal weight on their moral actions as on their financial ones.
November 22, 2005 at 10:09 am
But hasn't doing business with China brought China more in the mainstream. I think a strong argument can be made that if there is a significant middle class in a totalarian country then the governmemt eventually falls or changes.
November 22, 2005 at 1:03 pm
There are a couple of problems with this, like:
Its important to think about this for yourself. Many politicians don't have the time or inclination for ethics. The hard part is finding enough time and brain power to even have a half realistic action plan. It's very hard. (Amateur dabbling will likely distort people's lives and maybe kill them, there's a lot of responsibility here too!)
One approach is to pick an issue that you are passionate about. (You will likely loose the passion so you need staying power too.) Research it. Go there. Think, think, think. Do something about it.
November 23, 2005 at 11:52 am
You sure stirred it up today Steve.
While I have a two page resume, the real one is ten pages long for a reason. Of course you can never say "why" you left a job if it slams the company... and people who say they are moral or ethical often times aren't. That is something that others just have to see to believe... they can't be told.
I stay with a job as long as it's fun... and when it crosses a certain boundary, it is no longer fun. Consulting makes it easy and I never seem to lack work.
November 23, 2005 at 11:55 am
re: Craig A. Silvis statement "The United States of America was founded and based on Godly principles as is seen in the writings and life styles of the founding fathers. They used as a foundation the morals and ethics shown in the Bible and I think that this experiment in democracy shows that as long as a country or a company follows God's laws they will prosper."
This is pretty much what I was going to say. Ever since visiting Washington D.C. in 2002, I have become far more learned that our forefathers were in fact Bible based in their actions. This notion of "separation of church and State" was not their intention at all but that no government mandated religion be formed. They put God first in all things. Even the pilgrims were giving thanks to God at the event we now base the upcoming Thanksgiving holiday on and not just some party that included the locals. This nation was firmly God based and it shows. No other nation has prospered as well because of it either. What the corporations are doing is nothing compared what we are letting our various governments (Federal, State and local) do to satisfy mans lusts and desires. Once God turns his back on us, we are doomed to suffer the fate of all those before us and once again, we will have not learned. Don't let the liberals or man based religions get away from the bible teaching that are forefathers so wisely used. One example; I was reading that over 43 million abortions have been done in the USA since Roe vs. Wade in 1973. The Vietnam war only killed 58k in all those war years.
The corporations are only doing what we let them get away with.
November 23, 2005 at 2:53 pm
Disclaimer: I am not an economist, nor do I play one on TV. But I did hear a fascinating discourse on NPR once, which I'll attempt to summarize below. This is very brief, somewhat cynical, possibly ignorant and inaccurate, and that's enough with the caveats.
People are moral and/or ethical, even if we can't all agree on precisely what those terms mean.
Corporations are not people. Corporations are legal entities.
Corporations are run and/or directed by CEOs, VPs, whatever. These people (and their underlings/management team) are responsible for day-to-day decisions and activity.
The general purpose of a corporation is to benefit the owner or owners.
CEOs et. al. are hired by the owners to run the company (unless, of course, the owners are acting as the CEOs.) If the owners are not happy with the way the CEOs are running the corporation (losing money, dealing with China), they will replace the CEOs with CEOs who will act in the corporation owners best interests (i.e., generating more money, not dealing with China, whatever).
The owners of a priavely held corporation are (presumably) a small set of select individuals. Don't like how the company is run? Lean on them if you want their corporation to act better. If you can find or even contact them.
The owners of a publicly held corporation are the shareholders (such as the thousands of folks who own shares in Microsoft). They elect a board of directors to see to their interests, and that board of directors hire, oversee, and fire the CEOs. Don't like how the company is run? Kinda hard to lean on the board of directors [it always seems like a "vote for N out of N directors" when the proxys come out. Old boy network central.] and extremely costly (iv even possible) to lean on those thousands shareholders. Particularly since the vast majority are [bit of an assumption here] in fact mutual funds or similar "third parties".
So unless you're directly managing your financial affairs, you're leaving them to someone else to manage, and odds are you just want your mutual fund, IRA, or 401k fund to maximize your returns. [There are a very few funds and the like out there that only invest in ethical companies--but they are few, far between, and their returns generally don't compare favorably with market averages. I could be wrong here, having done very little research.]
Of course, if you don't own stock, mutual fund shares, or investments, you are disenfranchised and have no say in how corporations are run anyway. <Segue into discussions of politics, corporate lobbying, government oversight, etc. etc. etc.> And when was the last time you heard of a good boycot?
Ain't capitalism fun?
Philip
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