July 31, 2012 at 1:11 pm
ScottPletcher (7/31/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (7/31/2012)
ScottPletcher (7/31/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (7/31/2012)
Scott, What does Erwin have that Visio doesn't that causes you to consider it a modeling tool while not considering Visio one?I admit I haven't used Visio that much, but I thought it was just a diagramming tool period, with no inherent data base design handling.
No, it has a database template, columns, column types, relationships, foreign keys, etc... Even has a pretty good "reverse engineer" feature.
Erwin was a really good db design tool when I used it.
Clearly Visio is more than I thought it was, but MS itself still doesn't attempt to market it as a db design tool, as they never mention it:
But if you've already got it, and don't have Erwin or the equivalent, it's certainly going to be much better than nothing.
When I had the choice between Erwin & Visio, I chose Visio. I'm kind of surprised MS doesn't mention DB design with it, but there are so many other things it does these days it might be considered too niche to mention.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
July 31, 2012 at 2:01 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (7/31/2012)
When I had the choice between Erwin & Visio, I chose Visio.
Wow. You must not be a DBA or a data modeler 🙂 .
SQL DBA,SQL Server MVP(07, 08, 09) A socialist is someone who will give you the shirt off *someone else's* back.
July 31, 2012 at 2:39 pm
ScottPletcher (7/31/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (7/31/2012)
When I had the choice between Erwin & Visio, I chose Visio.
Wow. You must not be a DBA or a data modeler 🙂 .
I'm a systems analyst/database designer. Visio is more flexible and gave me more granular control over the visual results.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 1, 2012 at 6:34 am
ScottPletcher (7/31/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (7/31/2012)
When I had the choice between Erwin & Visio, I chose Visio.
Wow. You must not be a DBA or a data modeler 🙂 .
I agree with Stefan on this one. It's been a while since I used Erwin, but, last time I used it, it was a serious PITA. Visio works just fine, even for very complex databases. Heck, I prefer pen-and-paper over Erwin.
I should give a more modern version a try. Might have improved since I last played with it.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
August 1, 2012 at 8:33 am
GSquared (8/1/2012)
ScottPletcher (7/31/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (7/31/2012)
When I had the choice between Erwin & Visio, I chose Visio.
Wow. You must not be a DBA or a data modeler 🙂 .
I agree with Stefan on this one. It's been a while since I used Erwin, but, last time I used it, it was a serious PITA. Visio works just fine, even for very complex databases. Heck, I prefer pen-and-paper over Erwin.
I should give a more modern version a try. Might have improved since I last played with it.
On a purely data modeling level, Visio can't get close to Erwin.
Likewise, sure, my pickup can get me to the local grocery store, but that doesn't mean it could compete at Indy.
SQL DBA,SQL Server MVP(07, 08, 09) A socialist is someone who will give you the shirt off *someone else's* back.
August 1, 2012 at 9:05 am
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
GSquared (8/1/2012)
ScottPletcher (7/31/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (7/31/2012)
When I had the choice between Erwin & Visio, I chose Visio.
Wow. You must not be a DBA or a data modeler 🙂 .
I agree with Stefan on this one. It's been a while since I used Erwin, but, last time I used it, it was a serious PITA. Visio works just fine, even for very complex databases. Heck, I prefer pen-and-paper over Erwin.
I should give a more modern version a try. Might have improved since I last played with it.
On a purely data modeling level, Visio can't get close to Erwin.
Likewise, sure, my pickup can get me to the local grocery store, but that doesn't mean it could compete at Indy.
So what does Erwin do that Visio doesn't? When I had both tools to use and ended up choosing Visio it was partly because Erwin was difficult to use and there were things I wanted to do there that I couldn't, like controlling where the lines went. Granted, this was likely 15 years ago so things may have changed, but I haven't regretted going for Visio.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 1, 2012 at 9:28 am
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
So what does Erwin do that Visio doesn't?
I didn't think Visio even offered a logical data model (i.e. Entity modeling vs table modeling), I thought it was all physical modeling. DOA right there for any true "data modeling" tool -- how can ever model data w/o a logical model????
The other truly critical, make-or-break item is a true data repository. I'm pretty sure Visio doesn't have that. Again, DOA issue for serious data modeling.
There are other things, like submodels, which are also actually vital, but those alone kill Visio as even a pretender to an (enterprise-worthy) "data modeling" tool.
SQL DBA,SQL Server MVP(07, 08, 09) A socialist is someone who will give you the shirt off *someone else's* back.
August 1, 2012 at 9:35 am
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
So what does Erwin do that Visio doesn't?
I didn't think Visio even offered a logical data model (i.e. Entity modeling vs table modeling), I thought it was all physical modeling. DOA right there for any true "data modeling" tool -- how can ever model data w/o a logical model????
The other truly critical, make-or-break item is a true data repository. I'm pretty sure Visio doesn't have that. Again, DOA issue for serious data modeling.
There are other things, like submodels, which are also actually vital, but those alone kill Visio as even a pretender to an (enterprise-worthy) "data modeling" tool.
I've been designing databases and the systems that surround them for over 2 decades and I find Visio does everything I need.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 1, 2012 at 9:40 am
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
So what does Erwin do that Visio doesn't?
I didn't think Visio even offered a logical data model (i.e. Entity modeling vs table modeling), I thought it was all physical modeling. DOA right there for any true "data modeling" tool -- how can ever model data w/o a logical model????
The other truly critical, make-or-break item is a true data repository. I'm pretty sure Visio doesn't have that. Again, DOA issue for serious data modeling.
There are other things, like submodels, which are also actually vital, but those alone kill Visio as even a pretender to an (enterprise-worthy) "data modeling" tool.
I've been designing databases and the systems that surround them for over 2 decades and I find Visio does everything I need.
Great; then it's perfect for you. If you can get around on a bicycle, you don't need a car.
But no logical model? That's not "data modeling" in any true sense of the phrase.
SQL DBA,SQL Server MVP(07, 08, 09) A socialist is someone who will give you the shirt off *someone else's* back.
August 1, 2012 at 9:48 am
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
So what does Erwin do that Visio doesn't?
I didn't think Visio even offered a logical data model (i.e. Entity modeling vs table modeling), I thought it was all physical modeling. DOA right there for any true "data modeling" tool -- how can ever model data w/o a logical model????
The other truly critical, make-or-break item is a true data repository. I'm pretty sure Visio doesn't have that. Again, DOA issue for serious data modeling.
There are other things, like submodels, which are also actually vital, but those alone kill Visio as even a pretender to an (enterprise-worthy) "data modeling" tool.
I've been designing databases and the systems that surround them for over 2 decades and I find Visio does everything I need.
Great; then it's perfect for you. If you can get around on a bicycle, you don't need a car.
But no logical model? That's not "data modeling" in any true sense of the phrase.
You can do logical modeling in Visio, I don't know why you think you can't. Unless you're expecting the program to then interact with SQL Server in some way with the logical model you come up with, you can create one in Visio. Back in the day before we had all these fancy tools, you could create a logical model or a physical model, just choose what stencil you want, same here.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 1, 2012 at 10:08 am
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
So what does Erwin do that Visio doesn't?
I didn't think Visio even offered a logical data model (i.e. Entity modeling vs table modeling), I thought it was all physical modeling. DOA right there for any true "data modeling" tool -- how can ever model data w/o a logical model????
The other truly critical, make-or-break item is a true data repository. I'm pretty sure Visio doesn't have that. Again, DOA issue for serious data modeling.
There are other things, like submodels, which are also actually vital, but those alone kill Visio as even a pretender to an (enterprise-worthy) "data modeling" tool.
I've been designing databases and the systems that surround them for over 2 decades and I find Visio does everything I need.
Great; then it's perfect for you. If you can get around on a bicycle, you don't need a car.
But no logical model? That's not "data modeling" in any true sense of the phrase.
Poor comparison. Why assume Erwin is a car and Visio a bicycle? How about this comparison:
Why use a nuclear power plant when a diesel generator will get the job done?
or, using your prior analogy ("Likewise, sure, my pickup can get me to the local grocery store, but that doesn't mean it could compete at Indy."):
Good luck hauling any lumber with your Indy car.
I found Erwin over-complex for the job needed. Clunky interface, poorly designed user-interaction, junk documentation, high-price. Took ten times as long to get the job done, at 50X the price:
Erwin license: $4,794.00
Visio standard license: $89
Visio pro: $349
For 5386% the price, of course it has some functionality that Visio standard doesn't have. At 1374% of the price of Visio Pro, same thing. The problem is, 90% of that added functionality has 0 day-to-day value, and all of it is encumbered with a UI that was (at the time I was using it), could have been improved with an axe.
The only real advantage is reverse-engineering logical models for existing databases. CA Erwin does that for you, Visio won't. On the other hand, any existing database should (theoretically) already have a logical model in your documentation somewhere. You can create a logical model in Visio for a database that doesn't already exist yet, and turn it into a physical model, but it's a manual process.
For extremely complex projects, Erwin will do more for you, and the price tag is probably worth the difference. If I were building a database that was meant to compete with JD Edwards, MS GP, or one of the other commercial CRM+finance products, I'd definitely use something like Erwin or PowerDesigner.
However, every database I'm currently doing dev work in (as opposed to administering, where I don't need a modeling tool to manage backups, et al), Visio is adequate to what I need. Should I really buy a nuke plant when what I need is a diesel generator?
So, go ahead and keep your high horse, and your disparaging comments, and assume I'm insane/idiotic/incompetent/whatever, if it makes you feel better about yourself. (Honestly, that's how your comments are coming across.) I'll go ahead and use my $90 piece of software that does what I need, and won't use an overly complex, poorly designed, cumbersome system, that costs 53X as much, and doesn't do anything I currently have a need for, and I'll feel better about myself for that. This way, we both keep our egos intact. Happy now?
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
August 1, 2012 at 12:11 pm
GSquared (8/1/2012)
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
So what does Erwin do that Visio doesn't?
I didn't think Visio even offered a logical data model (i.e. Entity modeling vs table modeling), I thought it was all physical modeling. DOA right there for any true "data modeling" tool -- how can ever model data w/o a logical model????
The other truly critical, make-or-break item is a true data repository. I'm pretty sure Visio doesn't have that. Again, DOA issue for serious data modeling.
There are other things, like submodels, which are also actually vital, but those alone kill Visio as even a pretender to an (enterprise-worthy) "data modeling" tool.
I've been designing databases and the systems that surround them for over 2 decades and I find Visio does everything I need.
Great; then it's perfect for you. If you can get around on a bicycle, you don't need a car.
But no logical model? That's not "data modeling" in any true sense of the phrase.
Poor comparison. Why assume Erwin is a car and Visio a bicycle? How about this comparison:
Why use a nuclear power plant when a diesel generator will get the job done?
or, using your prior analogy ("Likewise, sure, my pickup can get me to the local grocery store, but that doesn't mean it could compete at Indy."):
Good luck hauling any lumber with your Indy car.
I found Erwin over-complex for the job needed. Clunky interface, poorly designed user-interaction, junk documentation, high-price. Took ten times as long to get the job done, at 50X the price:
Erwin license: $4,794.00
Visio standard license: $89
Visio pro: $349
For 5386% the price, of course it has some functionality that Visio standard doesn't have. At 1374% of the price of Visio Pro, same thing. The problem is, 90% of that added functionality has 0 day-to-day value, and all of it is encumbered with a UI that was (at the time I was using it), could have been improved with an axe.
The only real advantage is reverse-engineering logical models for existing databases. CA Erwin does that for you, Visio won't. On the other hand, any existing database should (theoretically) already have a logical model in your documentation somewhere. You can create a logical model in Visio for a database that doesn't already exist yet, and turn it into a physical model, but it's a manual process.
For extremely complex projects, Erwin will do more for you, and the price tag is probably worth the difference. If I were building a database that was meant to compete with JD Edwards, MS GP, or one of the other commercial CRM+finance products, I'd definitely use something like Erwin or PowerDesigner.
However, every database I'm currently doing dev work in (as opposed to administering, where I don't need a modeling tool to manage backups, et al), Visio is adequate to what I need. Should I really buy a nuke plant when what I need is a diesel generator?
So, go ahead and keep your high horse, and your disparaging comments, and assume I'm insane/idiotic/incompetent/whatever, if it makes you feel better about yourself. (Honestly, that's how your comments are coming across.) I'll go ahead and use my $90 piece of software that does what I need, and won't use an overly complex, poorly designed, cumbersome system, that costs 53X as much, and doesn't do anything I currently have a need for, and I'll feel better about myself for that. This way, we both keep our egos intact. Happy now?
Whatever. Just don't claim you're doing data modeling, which implies logical data modeling as well.
Yes, you get very nice pictures out of Visio. But it's not a complete modeling tool.
Both very large places I worked took data modeling seriously. To do that, you need an adequate tool.
I was responding to the continued, over and over and over, absurd claim that Visio was just as complete and thorough a modeling tool as ERWin. That's just a ridiculous claim.
>> every database I'm currently doing dev work in <<
A straw man, since the topic was data modeling, not dev work.
SQL DBA,SQL Server MVP(07, 08, 09) A socialist is someone who will give you the shirt off *someone else's* back.
August 1, 2012 at 12:20 pm
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
GSquared (8/1/2012)
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
So what does Erwin do that Visio doesn't?
I didn't think Visio even offered a logical data model (i.e. Entity modeling vs table modeling), I thought it was all physical modeling. DOA right there for any true "data modeling" tool -- how can ever model data w/o a logical model????
The other truly critical, make-or-break item is a true data repository. I'm pretty sure Visio doesn't have that. Again, DOA issue for serious data modeling.
There are other things, like submodels, which are also actually vital, but those alone kill Visio as even a pretender to an (enterprise-worthy) "data modeling" tool.
I've been designing databases and the systems that surround them for over 2 decades and I find Visio does everything I need.
Great; then it's perfect for you. If you can get around on a bicycle, you don't need a car.
But no logical model? That's not "data modeling" in any true sense of the phrase.
Poor comparison. Why assume Erwin is a car and Visio a bicycle? How about this comparison:
Why use a nuclear power plant when a diesel generator will get the job done?
or, using your prior analogy ("Likewise, sure, my pickup can get me to the local grocery store, but that doesn't mean it could compete at Indy."):
Good luck hauling any lumber with your Indy car.
I found Erwin over-complex for the job needed. Clunky interface, poorly designed user-interaction, junk documentation, high-price. Took ten times as long to get the job done, at 50X the price:
Erwin license: $4,794.00
Visio standard license: $89
Visio pro: $349
For 5386% the price, of course it has some functionality that Visio standard doesn't have. At 1374% of the price of Visio Pro, same thing. The problem is, 90% of that added functionality has 0 day-to-day value, and all of it is encumbered with a UI that was (at the time I was using it), could have been improved with an axe.
The only real advantage is reverse-engineering logical models for existing databases. CA Erwin does that for you, Visio won't. On the other hand, any existing database should (theoretically) already have a logical model in your documentation somewhere. You can create a logical model in Visio for a database that doesn't already exist yet, and turn it into a physical model, but it's a manual process.
For extremely complex projects, Erwin will do more for you, and the price tag is probably worth the difference. If I were building a database that was meant to compete with JD Edwards, MS GP, or one of the other commercial CRM+finance products, I'd definitely use something like Erwin or PowerDesigner.
However, every database I'm currently doing dev work in (as opposed to administering, where I don't need a modeling tool to manage backups, et al), Visio is adequate to what I need. Should I really buy a nuke plant when what I need is a diesel generator?
So, go ahead and keep your high horse, and your disparaging comments, and assume I'm insane/idiotic/incompetent/whatever, if it makes you feel better about yourself. (Honestly, that's how your comments are coming across.) I'll go ahead and use my $90 piece of software that does what I need, and won't use an overly complex, poorly designed, cumbersome system, that costs 53X as much, and doesn't do anything I currently have a need for, and I'll feel better about myself for that. This way, we both keep our egos intact. Happy now?
Whatever. Just don't claim you're doing data modeling, which implies logical data modeling as well.
Yes, you get very nice pictures out of Visio. But it's not a complete modeling tool.
Both very large places I worked took data modeling seriously. To do that, you need an adequate tool.
I was responding to the continued, over and over and over, absurd claim that Visio was just as complete and thorough a modeling tool as ERWin. That's just a ridiculous claim.
>> every database I'm currently doing dev work in <<
A straw man, since the topic was data modeling, not dev work.
You still haven't defined what you consider a complete modeling tool. Or what it requires beyond the "very nice pictures" you mention.
I've never said it was as complete and thorough, I said it was better. Those are two different things. Visio is much easier to work in and has a modern interface. Erwin feels like it longs for the 80s. I can do every damn thing I need to do with Visio. Sure, I can probably do it with Erwin too, once I manage to figure out the interface, but far fewer places are going to spring for Erwin than will buy Visio. A tool isn't much good if it it priced out of the range of people who need it.
Since "very nice pictures" seem inadequate for you, are you claiming that no "real" data modeling was done back in the days of graph paper and stencils?
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
August 1, 2012 at 1:03 pm
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
You still haven't defined what you consider a complete modeling tool. Or what it requires beyond the "very nice pictures" you mention.
Yes, I did. To repeat, separate logical and physical dm and a central, shared data repository are sine qua non for a dm tool.
I've never said it was as complete and thorough, I said it was better. Those are two different things.
I don't agree than an imcomplete and unthorough tool is as good as a complete and thorough one, even if the latter is more complex.
I can do every damn thing I need to do with Visio.
I agree; I'm sure you couldn't any more with ERWin than you do with Visio.
I use Word for simple diagrams, because it's easy to use and I'm more familiar with it. But I don't try to claim that because of that, Word's better at diagramming than Visio.
Since "very nice pictures" seem inadequate for you, are you claiming that no "real" data modeling was done back in the days of graph paper and stencils?
Quite the contrary -- YOU are. I've stated that nice pictures AREN'T necessary; you cited that as the first reason you gave for liking Visio. Indeed, that's the essence of what Visio is -- it's designed specifically to create nice diagrams, etc., not designed as a dm tool.
Even before the new tools (and we had only home-grown tools), when we did data modeling, we did both logical modeling and physical modeling. We also did a data dictionary/respository. It's just vastly easier with the tools.
We did do diagrams, although then we used post-its until the end because that made it much easier to move things around in the diagram.
SQL DBA,SQL Server MVP(07, 08, 09) A socialist is someone who will give you the shirt off *someone else's* back.
August 1, 2012 at 1:11 pm
ScottPletcher (8/1/2012)
Stefan Krzywicki (8/1/2012)
You still haven't defined what you consider a complete modeling tool. Or what it requires beyond the "very nice pictures" you mention.
Yes, I did. To repeat, separate logical and physical dm and a central, shared data repository are sine qua non for a dm tool.
I've never said it was as complete and thorough, I said it was better. Those are two different things.
I don't agree than an imcomplete and unthorough tool is as good as a complete and thorough one, even if the latter is more complex.
I can do every damn thing I need to do with Visio.
I agree; I'm sure you couldn't any more with ERWin than you do with Visio.
I use Word for simple diagrams, because it's easy to use and I'm more familiar with it. But I don't try to claim that because of that, Word's better at diagramming than Visio.
Since "very nice pictures" seem inadequate for you, are you claiming that no "real" data modeling was done back in the days of graph paper and stencils?
Quite the contrary -- YOU are. I've stated that nice pictures AREN'T necessary; you cited that as the first reason you gave for liking Visio. Indeed, that's the essence of what Visio is -- it's designed specifically to create nice diagrams, etc., not designed as a dm tool.
Even before the new tools (and we had only home-grown tools), when we did data modeling, we did both logical modeling and physical modeling. We also did a data dictionary/respository. It's just vastly easier with the tools.
We did do diagrams, although then we used post-its until the end because that made it much easier to move things around in the diagram.
Ah well, I'm sure I'll do just fine one day when I end up on a contract to fix whatever mess you've thrown together. I'd be astonished if any of your documentation was worth a damn since you seem completely incapable of doing any description of what you want and need other than throwing around the same buzzwords over and over.
All I was looking for was an explanation from you about what Erwin can do that Visio can't. You make statements but give no explanation of how Erwin handles these things in a way you like. You haven't used Visio, but make very certain statements about what it can and cannot do. Finally, you're being insulting to me just because I don't like your preferred tool? Thanks for providing such hard evidence for why you should be ignored.
Bye now. Have a nice life.
--------------------------------------
When you encounter a problem, if the solution isn't readily evident go back to the start and check your assumptions.
--------------------------------------
It’s unpleasantly like being drunk.
What’s so unpleasant about being drunk?
You ask a glass of water. -- Douglas Adams
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