December 12, 2014 at 2:09 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (12/11/2014)
P Jones (12/11/2014)[hr
...
They wouldn't fully re-wire their home themselves but would call in a professional and they should do the same for business software.
I can agree with some of what you wrote, but there's a difference between re-wiring your home and replacing a switch or socket. Certainly many homeowners can do smaller tasks, some larger ones.
That's similar here. People can do some programming and certainly improve things. The first response in this thread has some good thoughts.
Not in th UK. Not anymore. We are not allowed to touch the electrics unless it then passes inspection by a qualified electrician. Nanny state 🙁
As for coding, they don't even regulate who can code nuclear power plants.
Funny that.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 12, 2014 at 2:28 am
Sir Slicendice (12/11/2014)
One thing that occurs to me after hitting 'Post' is that the most successful of these citizen-programmer oriented language systems have very 'messy' foundations, while the languages which have strict, clean, consistent, 'formal'-ish foundations seem to be less well received as citizen programmer tools (with an instant's worth of thought, here).As in, consider SQL: it's fantastically consistent, with a very solid theoretical foundation, but citizen-programmers generally stay away from it - even though it was really intended for them!
Java and .NET languages: very clean foundations, and the exclusive domain of professional developers.
And Python: solid foundations, and while it's used by scientists and engineers, the actual users that I know are really software developers first and foremost; there are few 'casual' users of Python.
On the other end of the spectrum, we have Perl (enough said), and original VB / VBA, and node.js: all with (dare I say) 'messy' foundations, and all favorites for casual use.
So my question: is this mere coincidence, or is there something more here? Or am I guilty of bias in my selection list? Or am I missing the solid formal foundations of the citizen programmer language platforms of choice?
?
-frank
No coincidence in my opinion. Anything which requires any rigour or discipline takes the focus away from the task towards the tool. This is fine if the tool is in the hands of a professional (in terms of the tool) as they will be more skilfully be able to apply it but those that want to use the tool but are not a professional (again, in terms of the tool) are only focussed on what they perceive as the end result.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 12, 2014 at 4:20 am
stephen.kemp (12/11/2014)
...Few programmers would open a text editor to write their Java or .Net app...
There are always times. This is when I am glad that I started coding just before IDEs so I use IDEs as much as possible to get the productivity benefits but when I need to edit in notepad (or equivalent) or change a machine generated file I know that I have the experience I can apply.
BTW I don't think that I am special but I do think that I have been lucky with my experiences - just like many others.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 12, 2014 at 4:25 am
stephen.kemp (12/11/2014)
...He or she is not interested in code re-use (the dogma of the object oriented programmer) because citizen programmers don't work in heirarchical teams. If they want to re-use code from a previous project they just cut and paste it...
We all know the problems with the Cut'n'Paste reuse of code. In my experience this is one of the most common causes of erroneous reports. A definition defined as a calculation that changes over time but is applied differently throughout a department or company as each copy is dependant upon the version copied which will change independently from all other copies.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 12, 2014 at 6:23 am
I love citizen programmers. They are can do kind of people and just want to make their job easier. What I dislike is when citizen programmers use professional tools because it creates a huge mess without necessarily the perception of one.
I have been at a number of places where someone has created a collection of behemoths using MS Access and VB which some of the business recognises is a problem for a number of reasons. What management understandably had a problem with was justifying the cost of moving MS Access (a database) to SQL Server (a database) and the VB (an application) to a different technology (an application).
The Excel citizen programmers often just want to interrogate data and only manage the data so that they can have access to manipulate and report on the data without restrictions. Given the right tools (Excel based ones would be very familiar) these citizen programmers often love having the responsibility of maintaining the data taken away from them as long as they still have access to it.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
December 12, 2014 at 6:50 am
Gary Varga (12/12/2014)[hr
Not in th UK. Not anymore. We are not allowed to touch the electrics unless it then passes inspection by a qualified electrician. Nanny state 🙁
As for coding, they don't even regulate who can code nuclear power plants.
Funny that.
That's because there is not yet a code writers union or lobby group to pressure government into guild protectionism (under the guise of 'licensing'--"think of the children!"). It'll happen.
Apparently it's good to give horses a rubdown after exertion, now in one state they are moving to requiring a license for horse massage.
...
-- FORTRAN manual for Xerox Computers --
December 12, 2014 at 6:51 am
OCTom (12/11/2014)
As professionals I believe we should recognize citizen programmers and offer to mentor them in proper techniques. I have done this several times with good results. One thing you find out early in mentoring others is whether they really have an interest and a knack for the development process and techniques.Those that don't really want to be developers or have a knack for it just want to throw together an Access database and some VBA to get something done. Once they mess that up and get stuck, they want me to fix it. I generally say no, especially after they turned down mentoring.
We have a responsibilty to help those that want the help and want to learn proper database design and proper techniques.
Tom
+1 on the mentoring, provided it's to do the job the business is paying them to do. I have one I'm guiding at present who is keen to learn and also a report writer who has taken to sql querying like a duck to water.
December 12, 2014 at 9:30 am
gregg_dn (12/11/2014)
If developers gave users what they needed, most people would never attempt to write code.
In an ideal world, users would have the tools they need, and the developers, under good management, would be creating all the proper necessary tools. Perhaps, in a galaxy, far, far, away. But not here, and not in the foreseeable future.
So, tools like the old VB, and any of the newer ones fill a need. A need where users can attempt to create what they cannot get from IT. And there are some people who do there own home wiring. Some are skilled, others are not.
The more you are prepared, the less you need it.
December 12, 2014 at 9:47 am
Gary Varga (12/12/2014)
I love citizen programmers. They are can do kind of people and just want to make their job easier. What I dislike is when citizen programmers use professional tools because it creates a huge mess without necessarily the perception of one.I have been at a number of places where someone has created a collection of behemoths using MS Access and VB which some of the business recognises is a problem for a number of reasons. What management understandably had a problem with was justifying the cost of moving MS Access (a database) to SQL Server (a database) and the VB (an application) to a different technology (an application).
The Excel citizen programmers often just want to interrogate data and only manage the data so that they can have access to manipulate and report on the data without restrictions. Given the right tools (Excel based ones would be very familiar) these citizen programmers often love having the responsibility of maintaining the data taken away from them as long as they still have access to it.
I odn't know that I agree. First I severely doubt we can fight the trend since there are so many professional grade tools free for the download.
Even if we could stop it, why should we? There's a need and these folks are trying to solve it. They are doing it faster than we as IT can. We should be assisitng them not tryin to tamp it out, and yes - they should do it in tools we prescribe. We possibly control enough that they don't tear down the house, but by helping we will at least *know* about potential items that might flare up.
Gartner had a great presentation on such things last year where they envcouraged such behavior. Given the citizen access to a true sandbox and let them loose; let IT pick up anything that is of value and should promout OUT of the the sandbox. pretty compelling stuff.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
December 15, 2014 at 8:56 am
Significantly restricting development to a chosen few I think leads to different problems which I contend are more detrimental than the problems associated with citizenship – although from an IT perspective I accept it may feel cleaner, from an overall productivity perspective I am of the opinion that the organisation as a whole loses.
I think the internet is a good example of what can be achieved by the democratisation of access and control.
December 15, 2014 at 3:37 pm
Dalkeith (12/15/2014)
...I think the internet is a good example of what can be achieved by the democratisation of access and control.
The internet is a good example of it working whereas I would suggest that the world wide web is a good example of where it sometimes works and sometimes fails.
Gaz
-- Stop your grinnin' and drop your linen...they're everywhere!!!
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