July 20, 2009 at 8:15 am
I'm going to wait for Gift Peddie to answer Gail's question about his assertion about women and minorities before I comment further, because in the past I took and passed several MS and Java certifications and don't see why on Earth they would be gender or minority biased. Biased against people who don't actually speak the language the test is being given or memorize trivial details, perhaps, but these categories are not exclusive to women and/or minorities.
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
"Civilization exists by geologic consent, subject to change without notice." -- Will Durant
July 20, 2009 at 8:18 am
I just finished the the developer and DBA tracks for the SQL 2008 certs and I have to say they were pretty useless tests. The first ones for each track were decent enough but they really only verify that you have a general concept of things. The 2nd tier of the tests (70-450 & 451) were completely useless. I was actually pretty agitated when I left those exams, convinced they were just a way for Microsoft to make another $125. These exams are really only useful for getting someone past an HR screener who is looking for keywords. I wouldn't put any faith in their value or that I was getting a knowledgable candidate just because they had these certs.
July 20, 2009 at 8:24 am
For many years in my area, the post-high school technical schools made obtaining the common certifications part of the program's curriculum.
I suspect having certifications gave those new job seekers a jump on others for a while, but it didn’t take long for word to spread about the practice.
Overall, we just need to remember that a certification means demonstrating a level of competency about a body of knowledge. It does not imply working knowledge about, nor actual experience with, the operation of the topic/technology in the real world.
July 20, 2009 at 8:27 am
I tend to agree with most of the older posters here... Being in the business for 30 years now, Certifications have proven two things to me over my career...
#1 - They are useless, prove nothing, and most people I met who have them are not what I would call "advanced" in their knowledge.
#2 - MS makes good money off the tests - and thats why they stay around.
I tend to think of Certifications much like my own knowledge of automobile engines. I can tell you just about anything you want to know about the science behind an automobile engine.
...but ask me to work on an engine, or even point out its parts, and about all I can do is show you where to refill the washer fluid.
July 20, 2009 at 8:34 am
Are you implying that woman and minorities are stupid in that they can't pass an exam even with the material available
No the US education system excludes these groups, the second largest state Texas a judge managed school funding for more than 20years because the state cannot be trusted to do the right thing. And Redmond had to fire the Texas .NET envangelist so I can be trained for .NET. So I am saying there are many default barier to women and minorities in the actually education process. How many blacks are in your South African developers group? and please I need to know how many are black women. So I am saying somebody left their actual education on the cutting room floor.
Federal marshals escorted the first set of female engineer to work in the 1970s.
or are you implying that there's some logic in the marking of the exams to fail candidates if they are woman or members of minority groups?
I am saying current prep material is sub standard.
Brain washed education to make us the fools---Bob Marley
Dreams differed---Langston Hughes
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 20, 2009 at 8:45 am
Gift Peddie (7/20/2009)
Are you implying that woman and minorities are stupid in that they can't pass an exam even with the material available
No the US education system excludes these groups, the second largest state Texas a judge managed school funding for more than 20years because the state cannot be trusted to do the right thing. And Redmond had to fire the Texas .NET envangelist so I can be trained for .NET. So I am saying there are many default barier to women and minorities in the actually education process. How many blacks are in your South African developers group? and please I need to know how many are black women. So I am saying somebody left their actual education on the cutting room floor.
or are you implying that there's some logic in the marking of the exams to fail candidates if they are woman or members of minority groups?
I am saying current prep material is sub standard.
I don't think the general state of education is particularly relevant to this discussion, and I don't even understand what "And Redmond had to fire the Texas .NET envangelist so I can be trained for .NET. " means. You called MS and asked them to fire someone so you can get trained?
But if you want to talk about the general state of education, with respect to women, the issue starts at a young age (where girls aren't encouraged to focus on math/science curricula) and through socialization (where "geeky" girls aren't "cool"). So many girls are choosing other career paths and not choosing to go down the technical path. But if an individual girl gets past all these issues and decides to take a computer course, I don't see any reason they wouldn't be capable of passing the exam.
For all your egalitarian talk, I think you are vastly underestimating the capabilities of the two groups of people you are professing to defend by saying even with an open book a girl or minority in the class won't pass.
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
"Civilization exists by geologic consent, subject to change without notice." -- Will Durant
July 20, 2009 at 8:49 am
I merely want to say that the tone in which you present this article makes it seem as though the students working hard to get these certifications are somehow wrong for pursuing them. While they may not have the job experience, they do have young and fresh minds, ready to explore and look at problems in new ways. That is, versus the masses of IT professionals who are stuck in their same-old way of analyzing and solving problems.
So, while there may be several IT professionals out of work at the moment, and the jobs scarcer and scarcer, it doesn't seem that their should be any disdain/dislike/worry over these certifications for students since they are simply trying to break into an industry and find jobs just like everyone else. And honestly, the experience requirement this article seems to advocate doesn't necessarily hold much water. I know several DBAs with experience as we all do, and I can't fully say that just because they have years on the job that they are any better at understanding the needs and limitations of the software and systems than some of the quick-thinking newbies who have something the old-timers do not: constant energy and drive, and a freshness to their studies.
Good luck to all of these fresh graduates. Don't poo-poo the youth for being youthful.
July 20, 2009 at 9:06 am
Gift Peddie (7/20/2009)
Are you implying that woman and minorities are stupid in that they can't pass an exam even with the material available
No the US education system excludes these groups, the second largest state Texas a judge managed school funding for more than 20years because the state cannot be trusted to do the right thing. And Redmond had to fire the Texas .NET envangelist so I can be trained for .NET. So I am saying there are many default barier to women and minorities in the actually education process. How many blacks are in your South African developers group? and please I need to know how many are black women. So I am saying somebody left their actual education on the cutting room floor.
Federal marshals escorted the first set of female engineer to work in the 1970s.
or are you implying that there's some logic in the marking of the exams to fail candidates if they are woman or members of minority groups?
I am saying current prep material is sub standard.
Brain washed education to make us the fools---Bob Marley
Dreams differed---Langston Hughes
I have been involved in computers since I was in High School, and have done everything including Computer Operations, system administration, network support (including pulling cables), programming and system development, and database administration and development over the years.
I have 3 daughters, and guess what, none of them want to do what I do. Most of their freinds have no desire to persue IT careers either. It happens to be a "geek" thing. It isn't the education system, it is the perception of the IT career that keeps many women from persuing IT careers. Now, don't get me wrong, my daughters are well versed with using computers having grown up with them in the house and using them a lot in schools now.
I can tell from many of your posts that your view is colored by your experience, and that happens, but it doesn't mean that it is that way everywhere or that there is some sort of conspiricy to keep women and minorities out of the IT field. Considering how much computer technology is becoming a part of nearly everything, we actually need more people in this field.
July 20, 2009 at 9:09 am
Gift Peddie (7/20/2009)
How many blacks are in your South African developers group? and please I need to know how many are black women.
Blacks aren't a minority group in South Africa. If you want to get technical, down here I'm part of the 'discriminated against' minority.
I have a few African gentlemen attending usergroup meetings. Most don't come regularly and I don't know why. But them most members in general don't come regularly.
I will freely admit that there are very few woman in IT here. I've written and spoken about that before. It's not that there's blatant discrimination all over the place, there isn't. It's mostly that SA is still a very patriarchal society and IT is not viewed as a suitable career for woman and that maths, physics etc are not suitable subjects for woman to study. It's something that needs to be addressed from school level. It's definitely getting better. There's a much higher percentage of woman in IT now than there was when I entered the field
So I am saying somebody left their actual education on the cutting room floor.
Is that aimed at someone in particular? Or is it a comment in general?
I am saying current prep material is sub standard.
Then that affects everyone who wants to write the exams, not a subset of candidates.
Gail Shaw
Microsoft Certified Master: SQL Server, MVP, M.Sc (Comp Sci)
SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability
July 20, 2009 at 9:17 am
tclaxton (7/20/2009)
I merely want to say that the tone in which you present this article makes it seem as though the students working hard to get these certifications are somehow wrong for pursuing them.
No. That's one of the sad things about this topic. There's a wealth of enthusiasm and raw talent amongst the younger generations, and they're desperate to just get the chance to demonstrate their value. Certifications (not just MS, but most others as well) look like they're an obvious way of achieving this, so students and new graduates spend a lot of time, effort and money pursuing them.....
....only to find the industry often ignores the certs because they fail to measure what really matters to employers. Leaving the new grads still looking for their break into the industry but a good few dollars ligher in the pocket. So no, I don't think the young are wrong for wanting to prove themselves but yes, I do believe they're wrong to use the certifications as their means to do so.
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
July 20, 2009 at 9:17 am
I don't think the general state of education is particularly relevant to this discussion, and I don't even understand what.
It will not be relevant when education does not prepare one for software development.
"And Redmond had to fire the Texas .NET envangelist so I can be trained for .NET. " means. You called MS and asked them to fire someone so you can get trained?
No I was not getting invitations to be trained while I was of the needed technical group Java and C++ writers. I think the evals got him fired but his replacement was brilliant and just care previous C based language skills.
But if you want to talk about the general state of education, with respect to women, the issue starts at a young age (where girls aren't encouraged to focus on math/science curricula) and through socialization (where "geeky" girls aren't "cool"). So many girls are choosing other career paths and not choosing to go down the technical path.
The last man who said these crap it cost him Harvard presidency and US Treasury secretary job. I helped at the Microsoft certification forum last year and helped add many women to the C# certified so Microsoft knows that is not true.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 20, 2009 at 9:19 am
Gift Peddie, Gail informed me offline that you are female and pointed me to an explanation of some of your comments.
I am very sorry that you have experienced discrimination; it is never acceptable. The person who told you that you shouldn't get a CS degree should not be in academia, that is truly disgraceful.
However, I am a woman and a software developer/architect with a focus in MS technologies and I live and work in Houston. I have worked in development here, in Austin, in Dallas, and in other parts of the country and I have *never* experienced any of the issues that you have. I have worked with women, minority, and female minority developers in all of these places. I even worked with a Chinese lady programmer on a project once (I am quite sure it was not you). Some of them are very good at their job, some of them are not - just like any other developers. I can tell from your posts on this community that you are intelligent and have a good knowledge of .NET, but I have to wonder if there are other reasons to explain the constant barrage of problems you have faced other than your gender or minority status.
--
Anye Mercy
"Service Unavailable is not an Error" -- John, ENOM support
"You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means." -- Inigo Montoya in "Princess Bride"
"Civilization exists by geologic consent, subject to change without notice." -- Will Durant
July 20, 2009 at 9:19 am
The editorial covered a couple things, one is that "cheating" devalues the exams for everyone. It isn't doing a friend a favor, nor yourself.
I don't have a problem with high schoolers pursuing these certifications, but as we train people to pass the test, we start to make the test a basic filter. It becomes a GED for the tech guy/gal, and it's just one way of assessing if this person will a) stick with the job and not get bored and b) has an aptitude.
Note that aptitude != skill. It means that they like computers and can use them, and perhaps, with time and experience, will become skilled.
Many HR groups use certifications as a filter. If you don't have them, they might discard your resume.
As far as MS/Novell/Cisco, etc. the exams in many cases have become a profit center. It's a way to make money. And that's a problem.
July 20, 2009 at 9:23 am
I can tell from many of your posts that your view is colored by your experience, and that happens, but it doesn't mean that it is that way everywhere or that there is some sort of conspiricy to keep women and minorities out of the IT field.
I also think your views are based on your experience.
Kind regards,
Gift Peddie
July 20, 2009 at 9:29 am
tclaxton is perhaps confused about the message..
I see lots of bright young people, well-educated people, coming out of computer science curricula every year. And this geezer enjoys working with them.
My message is that the certificates are of doubtful value as a way to "break into" the field.
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