Are the posted questions getting worse?

  • Jeff Moden

    SSC Guru

    Points: 993863

    below86 wrote:

    I've been working with a young developer for over a year on trying to get her to format any SQL she writes, SSIS or SSRS packages.  Since I do most of her code reviews I thought that she was getting on board with it.  She asked for help on an SSRS report she was working on, she sent me the SQL , it was all over the place as far as formatting.  I asked her why it wasn't formatted correctly, she said it was the developer that worked on it prior to her.  I know this is BS since I reviewed his code as well.  I just wanted to scream at her "Why the 'F' isn't this formatted correctly?"  Then she tries to use a MAX or ROW_NUMBER to get just one row back instead of taking the time to join the tables properly.  I know the MAX or ROW_NUMBER is needed in certain situations but not EVERY WHERE.   Sorry, just wanted to vent.

     

    Heh... that does bring up another good point... it's totally amazing to me how much time people will spend justifying why the code isn't properly commented and formatted.  It frequently takes them longer to do that than it would take to do the proper thing.  The excuses are frequently stupid, as well.

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
    "If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."--Red Adair
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not."
    When you put the right degree of spin on it, the number 3|8 is also a glyph that describes the nature of a DBAs job. 😉

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems

  • Jeff Moden

    SSC Guru

    Points: 993863

    p.s.  Venting is good... being old, I can tell you, it keeps you from farting so much. 😀

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
    "If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."--Red Adair
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not."
    When you put the right degree of spin on it, the number 3|8 is also a glyph that describes the nature of a DBAs job. 😉

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems

  • below86

    SSChampion

    Points: 11210

    Jeff Moden wrote:

    p.s.  Venting is good... being old, I can tell you, it keeps you from farting so much. 😀

    I guess my wife would say I need to do more venting then. LOL

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    we travel not to escape life but for life not to escape us

  • TomThomson

    SSC Guru

    Points: 104748

    Jeff Moden wrote:

    TomThomson wrote:

    Grant Fritchey wrote:

    Chris Harshman wrote:

    I don't trust anyone... not even myself! 🙂

    My name is Grant Fritchey and I endorse this message. Except I'd change it slightly: I don't trust anyone... especially not myself!

    I do trust bright young developers. I trust them to write terrible code, to lay it out and format it so as to make it as difficult as possible to read,  to buid SQL queries in C++ or even something worse (Basic?  C?) and pay no attention to injection risks, to keep comments that describe previous versions of the code, and to forget to write comments that describe the latest version.  I also trust them to skimp on unit testing, to do inadequate system testing, and to try to bypass rules about testing and QA and not shipping updates without proper authorisation.   Sometimes I have wished I could just fire the lot of them, but there would have been just about nobody left to do the work so I couldn't do that. After a couple of years of having sensible development, testing, verification, QA, security and release techniques dinned into them about half of them learn to do it properly.  Unfortunately, the other half don't - and some companies are so badly managed that the half that don't learn get promoted faster than the half that do, which may explain why so much bad software is released.

    +1 Billion.  It's not always their fault, though... about half of the problems come from managers that "want it real bad" and continue to reward "through put" rather than good code and the efficiencies that go right along with that.

    Yes, it tends to be the managers that cause trouble half the trouble, whether by advocating appallingly bad programming and software design practices or by demanding that things be done in impossible timescales with inadequate resources and no decent quality assumrance.  But a lot of the managers making those decisions are some of the half of new developers who didn't learn to do it right and got promoted into management because the existing managers hadn't a clue.  Of course as soon as marketeers think they can impose impossible timescale and accountants think they can impose utterly inadequate resources and QA managers are browbeaten to release lousey code (or, as I once watched, the QA manager wants the project scrapped because he's refused to allow development the time to test it before handing it over to him so his people will have a lot of bugs to find) everything is going to be "real bad".

    Tom

  • TomThomson

    SSC Guru

    Points: 104748

    below86 wrote:

    I've been working with a young developer for over a year on trying to get her to format any SQL she writes, SSIS or SSRS packages.  Since I do most of her code reviews I thought that she was getting on board with it.  She asked for help on an SSRS report she was working on, she sent me the SQL , it was all over the place as far as formatting.  I asked her why it wasn't formatted correctly, she said it was the developer that worked on it prior to her.  I know this is BS since I reviewed his code as well.  I just wanted to scream at her "Why the 'F' isn't this formatted correctly?"  Then she tries to use a MAX or ROW_NUMBER to get just one row back instead of taking the time to join the tables properly.  I know the MAX or ROW_NUMBER is needed in certain situations but not EVERY WHERE.   Sorry, just wanted to vent.

    You made a mistake - you should have told her straight away that you had seen the code before she took it over and it was properly formatted then.  Maybe she knew that anyway, but tried it on in attempt to make you give in without too much fuss - apparently a successful attempt, so you've probably encouraged her to invent false excuses again in the future.

    Tom

  • Jeff Moden

    SSC Guru

    Points: 993863

    TomThomson wrote:

    Jeff Moden wrote:

    TomThomson wrote:

    Grant Fritchey wrote:

    Chris Harshman wrote:

    I don't trust anyone... not even myself! 🙂

    My name is Grant Fritchey and I endorse this message. Except I'd change it slightly: I don't trust anyone... especially not myself!

    I do trust bright young developers. I trust them to write terrible code, to lay it out and format it so as to make it as difficult as possible to read,  to buid SQL queries in C++ or even something worse (Basic?  C?) and pay no attention to injection risks, to keep comments that describe previous versions of the code, and to forget to write comments that describe the latest version.  I also trust them to skimp on unit testing, to do inadequate system testing, and to try to bypass rules about testing and QA and not shipping updates without proper authorisation.   Sometimes I have wished I could just fire the lot of them, but there would have been just about nobody left to do the work so I couldn't do that. After a couple of years of having sensible development, testing, verification, QA, security and release techniques dinned into them about half of them learn to do it properly.  Unfortunately, the other half don't - and some companies are so badly managed that the half that don't learn get promoted faster than the half that do, which may explain why so much bad software is released.

    +1 Billion.  It's not always their fault, though... about half of the problems come from managers that "want it real bad" and continue to reward "through put" rather than good code and the efficiencies that go right along with that.

    Yes, it tends to be the managers that cause trouble half the trouble, whether by advocating appallingly bad programming and software design practices or by demanding that things be done in impossible timescales with inadequate resources and no decent quality assumrance.  But a lot of the managers making those decisions are some of the half of new developers who didn't learn to do it right and got promoted into management because the existing managers hadn't a clue.  Of course as soon as marketeers think they can impose impossible timescale and accountants think they can impose utterly inadequate resources and QA managers are browbeaten to release lousey code (or, as I once watched, the QA manager wants the project scrapped because he's refused to allow development the time to test it before handing it over to him so his people will have a lot of bugs to find) everything is going to be "real bad".

     

    Totally agreed and well said... expect you missed a dozen very proper and correctly imparted opportunities to use the "F" word. 😉

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
    "If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."--Red Adair
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not."
    When you put the right degree of spin on it, the number 3|8 is also a glyph that describes the nature of a DBAs job. 😉

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems

  • Jeff Moden

    SSC Guru

    Points: 993863

    TomThomson wrote:

    below86 wrote:

    I've been working with a young developer for over a year on trying to get her to format any SQL she writes, SSIS or SSRS packages.  Since I do most of her code reviews I thought that she was getting on board with it.  She asked for help on an SSRS report she was working on, she sent me the SQL , it was all over the place as far as formatting.  I asked her why it wasn't formatted correctly, she said it was the developer that worked on it prior to her.  I know this is BS since I reviewed his code as well.  I just wanted to scream at her "Why the 'F' isn't this formatted correctly?"  Then she tries to use a MAX or ROW_NUMBER to get just one row back instead of taking the time to join the tables properly.  I know the MAX or ROW_NUMBER is needed in certain situations but not EVERY WHERE.   Sorry, just wanted to vent.

    You made a mistake - you should have told her straight away that you had seen the code before she took it over and it was properly formatted then.  Maybe she knew that anyway, but tried it on in attempt to make you give in without too much fuss - apparently a successful attempt, so you've probably encouraged her to invent false excuses again in the future.

     

    Again, totally agreed.  This would have been the correct spot set a mentor-like but very firm precedent and to let people know that, although you may have been born at night, it wasn't last night. 😉

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
    "If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."--Red Adair
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not."
    When you put the right degree of spin on it, the number 3|8 is also a glyph that describes the nature of a DBAs job. 😉

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems

  • below86

    SSChampion

    Points: 11210

    Jeff Moden wrote:

    TomThomson wrote:

    below86 wrote:

    I've been working with a young developer for over a year on trying to get her to format any SQL she writes, SSIS or SSRS packages.  Since I do most of her code reviews I thought that she was getting on board with it.  She asked for help on an SSRS report she was working on, she sent me the SQL , it was all over the place as far as formatting.  I asked her why it wasn't formatted correctly, she said it was the developer that worked on it prior to her.  I know this is BS since I reviewed his code as well.  I just wanted to scream at her "Why the 'F' isn't this formatted correctly?"  Then she tries to use a MAX or ROW_NUMBER to get just one row back instead of taking the time to join the tables properly.  I know the MAX or ROW_NUMBER is needed in certain situations but not EVERY WHERE.   Sorry, just wanted to vent.

    You made a mistake - you should have told her straight away that you had seen the code before she took it over and it was properly formatted then.  Maybe she knew that anyway, but tried it on in attempt to make you give in without too much fuss - apparently a successful attempt, so you've probably encouraged her to invent false excuses again in the future.

      Again, totally agreed.  This would have been the correct spot set a mentor-like but very firm precedent and to let people know that, although you may have been born at night, it wasn't last night. 😉

    I did let her know about the formatting issues, and this wasn't being submitted for code review, she wanted help because she wasn't getting the right results.  I did point out the downfalls of using the MAX and I encouraged her to take another look at it to find a better way.  I haven't seen the code for review yet, last I knew she was still working other issues out.  My frustration is also in the fact that I've had to 'hold her hand' throughout the past year plus.  After so much 'holding of hand' you want to smack them upside the head when they continue to do it wrong.  And I was 99% sure I had reviewed the code before she started working on it, I doubled checked after the fact to make sure I was 100% correct, and I was.  At that point I saw no need to say anything to her.  I'll just make sure it meets our 'standards' before it moves to prod.  She should know better by now, she's had to delay her moves to prod because I found things she needed to fix in the past.  This is also one of the people that will spring the code review on my and say the code needs to go in the next day(like I have nothing else going on).

    -------------------------------------------------------------
    we travel not to escape life but for life not to escape us

  • Sergiy

    SSC Guru

    Points: 109668

    below86 wrote:

    Jeff Moden wrote:

    p.s.  Venting is good... being old, I can tell you, it keeps you from farting so much. 😀

    I guess my wife would say I need to do more venting then. LOL

    With some people - I'd prefer to withstand farting.

  • Eirikur Eiriksson

    SSC Guru

    Points: 182343

    Sergiy wrote:

    below86 wrote:

    Jeff Moden wrote:

    p.s.  Venting is good... being old, I can tell you, it keeps you from farting so much. 😀

    I guess my wife would say I need to do more venting then. LOL

    With some people - I'd prefer to withstand farting.

    Too much information!

    😎

  • jonathan.crawford

    SSCertifiable

    Points: 6346

    So today got awesome. Just minding my business, had a request in to start a Git repository for my team to finally get us into source control and out of the blue, someone forwards to a different team and says "this team wants to onboard with Azure DevOps"....so now we're talking about CI/CD pipelines and things light-years ahead of what we're currently doing.

    And thanks to you all and your incessant nattering on about this and that new technology, I even have enough of a clue to jump on board and convince my boss what this will do for us! Happy Friday to me!

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  • Jeff Moden

    SSC Guru

    Points: 993863

    jonathan.crawford wrote:

    ...so now we're talking about CI/CD pipelines...

    It will be interesting to know how you feel about that in 6 to 12 months.  And, no... not being bit sarcastic here.

    --Jeff Moden


    RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for Row-By-Agonizing-Row.
    First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
    ________Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column.
    "If you think its expensive to hire a professional to do the job, wait until you hire an amateur."--Red Adair
    "Change is inevitable... change for the better is not."
    When you put the right degree of spin on it, the number 3|8 is also a glyph that describes the nature of a DBAs job. 😉

    Helpful Links:
    How to post code problems

  • Lynn Pettis

    SSC Guru

    Points: 442116

    Eirikur Eiriksson wrote:

    Sergiy wrote:

    below86 wrote:

    Jeff Moden wrote:

    p.s.  Venting is good... being old, I can tell you, it keeps you from farting so much. 😀

    I guess my wife would say I need to do more venting then. LOL

    With some people - I'd prefer to withstand farting.

    Too much information! 😎

     

    Well, from he has said, he knows how to clear a table.

  • Lynn Pettis

    SSC Guru

    Points: 442116

    jonathan.crawford wrote:

    So today got awesome. Just minding my business, had a request in to start a Git repository for my team to finally get us into source control and out of the blue, someone forwards to a different team and says "this team wants to onboard with Azure DevOps"....so now we're talking about CI/CD pipelines and things light-years ahead of what we're currently doing. And thanks to you all and your incessant nattering on about this and that new technology, I even have enough of a clue to jump on board and convince my boss what this will do for us! Happy Friday to me!

     

    And then you get to learn about things like Docker, Kubernetes, Jenkins, and a whole lot more.

     

  • Brandie Tarvin

    SSC Guru

    Points: 172517

    jonathan.crawford wrote:

    So today got awesome. Just minding my business, had a request in to start a Git repository for my team to finally get us into source control and out of the blue, someone forwards to a different team and says "this team wants to onboard with Azure DevOps"....so now we're talking about CI/CD pipelines and things light-years ahead of what we're currently doing. And thanks to you all and your incessant nattering on about this and that new technology, I even have enough of a clue to jump on board and convince my boss what this will do for us! Happy Friday to me!

    My coworker just got this set up for some of our tickets. We're the first in the enterprise to have it. We're using Jenkins, Octopus and Git and the devs from the reporting / BI team will submit their code via this tool and it will auto-deploy, freeing us up from releasing 1-12 tickets a day for them so we can concentrate on our own coding / administrative tasks. We're looking forward to it.

    Brandie Tarvin, MCITP Database AdministratorLiveJournal Blog: http://brandietarvin.livejournal.com/[/url]On LinkedIn!, Google+, and Twitter.Freelance Writer: ShadowrunLatchkeys: Nevermore, Latchkeys: The Bootleg War, and Latchkeys: Roscoes in the Night are now available on Nook and Kindle.

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