August 11, 2016 at 3:27 pm
Sean Lange (8/11/2016)
Phil Parkin (8/11/2016)
Sean Lange (8/11/2016)
Ed Wagner (8/11/2016)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (8/11/2016)
Minor Update: The plan to replace the forums is proceeding. We've narrowed down to a couple companies, though the upgraded version of this forum is really winning. It's vastly improved, and moved from VB to C#, which makes developers happy. On pace for a final review of the plan when I go in Sept and hopefully an integration/upgrade/replacement in a month or two.That's fantastic. Do they have a database migration script or is the one you have in place too old? Please understand I mean no offense in asking; we have a number of packages that are too old.
Part of the process noted that we have a few "how to post code, how to ask a question, how to format code" articles. We do not have a "how to answer a question" article, which I think is a good idea.
I'd like to see some general rules and decorum in play here. I know some of you get frustrated, annoyed, etc by posters, but a few nice rules might help remind us of professional behavior.
Any takers on writing? If not, I can tackle it, but I am looking for feedback and ideas on what rules make sense.
I think there are multiple approaches to helping someone and it depends on the OP.
1. There's the well-posted question, complete with DDL, test data and expected results, which results in a more direct answer.
2. Then there's the post where someone posts code with no data and may or may not ask a question. That's an approach where you have to pull the actual question out of them.
3. There are also those homework posts where you want to direct them to the answer without giving it to them. After all, if the goal of the class is to learn something, then giving them an answer to copy/paste won't help them with anything except a grade.
4. There's the OP who views the site as an answer machine: insert question---get answer. They aren't interested in learning anything.
5. Lastly, there's the OP who's irate from the get-go. Better to just walk away.
I don't think I'm the right person to tackle this one.
Edit: Added #4 and #5.
If you aren't the right person who is? You bring up some excellent points about trying to properly deal with the kind of OP.
I agree. Except I apply the 'Walk away; there are more rewarding ways of spending my time' rule to those in category 4, too :hehe:
And my all-time favorites are those who are very solidly in both 2 and 5 at the same time. :w00t:
Having rules for answering questions makes sense but I have to ask the question, Why? Has as been noted there are several different categories that individuals asking questions may fall into, and many actually fall into several at times. I would be hard pressed to write an article like this as I may not have followed the rules in many past encounters. Every interaction is different and dynamic depending on many variables.
You might be able to provide guidelines, but even then, are you going to enforce them on everyone who attempts to answer a question? We can't all ways get people who ask questions to provide use with what we need to always help, but we still try. Some of us have taken wild shots in the dark and managed to provide the answer (whether the OP understood it enough to support it is another matter).
August 11, 2016 at 5:21 pm
GilaMonster (8/11/2016)
TomThomson (8/10/2016)
GilaMonster (8/10/2016)
First time in years that I'm flying somewhere just for a vacation, no conferences involved. Scotland, to save anyone from wondering.Any particular place
in Scotland? I'm mostly (not always) not in Scotland these days, but maybe we could meet up for a chat and a drink if you would like that provided your location and mine match at some point.Edinburgh until Monday morning (though planning to spend part of Sunday at St Andrews), then Stornoway for a week.
Sadly I can't get up to Steornobhagh any time soon (can't leave my wife for long enough to get there and back, and getting her there takes too long as how much she can travel on any one day is very limited) - I might be in Glasgow mid week, but that doesn't get us together; and I can't get away from here (Congleton) this weekend. Maybe some other time.
Tom
August 11, 2016 at 5:38 pm
Ed Wagner (8/11/2016)
I think there are multiple approaches to helping someone and it depends on the OP.1. There's the well-posted question, complete with DDL, test data and expected results, which results in a more direct answer.
2. Then there's the post where someone posts code with no data and may or may not ask a question. That's an approach where you have to pull the actual question out of them.
3. There are also those homework posts where you want to direct them to the answer without giving it to them. After all, if the goal of the class is to learn something, then giving them an answer to copy/paste won't help them with anything except a grade.
4. There's the OP who views the site as an answer machine: insert question---get answer. They aren't interested in learning anything.
5. Lastly, there's the OP who's irate from the get-go. Better to just walk away.
I don't think I'm the right person to tackle this one.
Edit: Added #4 and #5.
Actually there's another case: the OP asks a question in good clear English which makes it absolutely clear what the OP needs but doesn't provide test data or table definitions - it's not your case 2, because the question is well defined (and not a chunk of meaningless code). These questions tend to be badly treated on this site, with people seeming to have a reflex response demanding table definitions and data, which isn't needed when the question is absolutely clear without it. I know because I've answered a few of those over the years, usually after two or three people have just demanded defintions and data.
And yet another case is the question that has table definitions and data, but the definitions include no keys and the statement of the problem is incomplete so that it's not clear what restrictions there are on the data; one recent question, where the test data provided contained linear chains but the OP's tentative answer could handle linear chains or trees or any DAGs and the text referred to using date/time data which wasn't inluded in the tables shown, is a nice example - test data and table definitions are often not enough on their own.
Tom
August 11, 2016 at 5:41 pm
accidental duplicate deleted
Tom
August 12, 2016 at 3:48 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (8/11/2016)
...Part of the process noted that we have a few "how to post code, how to ask a question, how to format code" articles. We do not have a "how to answer a question" article, which I think is a good idea.
I'd like to see some general rules and decorum in play here. I know some of you get frustrated, annoyed, etc by posters, but a few nice rules might help remind us of professional behavior.
Any takers on writing? If not, I can tackle it, but I am looking for feedback and ideas on what rules make sense.
As one of the people who proposed this, I'm prepared to make a start - then pass the article on to someone else so my crap technique is covered too 😉
Some excellent ideas coming through already.
For fast, accurate and documented assistance in answering your questions, please read this article.
Understanding and using APPLY, (I) and (II) Paul White
Hidden RBAR: Triangular Joins / The "Numbers" or "Tally" Table: What it is and how it replaces a loop Jeff Moden
August 12, 2016 at 6:58 am
TomThomson (8/11/2016)
Ed Wagner (8/11/2016)
I think there are multiple approaches to helping someone and it depends on the OP.1. There's the well-posted question, complete with DDL, test data and expected results, which results in a more direct answer.
2. Then there's the post where someone posts code with no data and may or may not ask a question. That's an approach where you have to pull the actual question out of them.
3. There are also those homework posts where you want to direct them to the answer without giving it to them. After all, if the goal of the class is to learn something, then giving them an answer to copy/paste won't help them with anything except a grade.
4. There's the OP who views the site as an answer machine: insert question---get answer. They aren't interested in learning anything.
5. Lastly, there's the OP who's irate from the get-go. Better to just walk away.
I don't think I'm the right person to tackle this one.
Edit: Added #4 and #5.
Actually there's another case: the OP asks a question in good clear English which makes it absolutely clear what the OP needs but doesn't provide test data or table definitions - it's not your case 2, because the question is well defined (and not a chunk of meaningless code). These questions tend to be badly treated on this site, with people seeming to have a reflex response demanding table definitions and data, which isn't needed when the question is absolutely clear without it. I know because I've answered a few of those over the years, usually after two or three people have just demanded defintions and data.
And yet another case is the question that has table definitions and data, but the definitions include no keys and the statement of the problem is incomplete so that it's not clear what restrictions there are on the data; one recent question, where the test data provided contained linear chains but the OP's tentative answer could handle linear chains or trees or any DAGs and the text referred to using date/time data which wasn't inluded in the tables shown, is a nice example - test data and table definitions are often not enough on their own.
I think part of the definition / test data comes from where after you help. then additional exceptions / constraints become part of the question.
Two take outs might be - ask once, and do not demand, ask.
Instead of rules, maybe call the article general guidelines to providing answers.
The posters come in all types and attitudes, from not knowing and willing to learn, to dump and demand.
Replying in a fashion where you are trying to help move forward with a solution is professional.
Do not incite or participate in a frozen pork chop war, better to back away and help someone else.
August 12, 2016 at 7:31 am
TomThomson (8/11/2016)
Lynn Pettis (8/11/2016)
Brandie Tarvin (8/11/2016)
SQLRNNR (8/10/2016)
Brandie Tarvin (8/10/2016)
Sean Lange (8/10/2016)
Brandie Tarvin (8/10/2016)
SQLRNNR (8/9/2016)
Brandie Tarvin (8/9/2016)
Sigh.I am experiencing that sinking feeling one gets when one realizes an instance of SQL was installed without a sysadmin account.
To be fair, I don't know for sure that the tech installing stuff on my new box forgot the sysadmin account. But after neither me nor he could log into it... I'm thinking he may have to schedule an uninstall / reinstall (hopefully with the proper permissions this time).
EDIT: Fortunately it's just a Dev edition on my personal box, not an edition on one of our servers.
you can save yourself the uninstall/reinstall.
Restart dev edition in minimal configuration and add your personal account as a sysadmin that way.
http://www.practicalsqldba.com/2012/08/sql-server-lost-all-administrator.html
And I get "Sorry, the page you were looking for in this blog does not exist."
Look close at the actual URL. Seems that often the URL gets a bit weird on SSC. Here is the correct one.
http://www.practicalsqldba.com/2012/08/sql-server-lost-all-administrator.html
Thanks, Sean. Not sure that link would have helped since my login apparently wasn't on the SQL instance at all and no account that I knew the password to (or anyone knew the password to) was on it either. But I appreciate the reference.
No account needed on the instance for that first one to work. It's a nice little backdoor.
Huh. I'll have to keep that in mind.
Of course, now I've got another interview question on my list. "Name one or more ways to log into SSMS using an account other than your current login." I think that's a nice one to separate out the beginners from the intermediates from the experts (who would probably know about these two options).
Know about them, yes. Explain them, no; Know that the instructions exist for them out on the Internet and get to them, again yes.
either you are thinking of comething too complex or I don't understand the question: to me it seems obvous (and trivial) that you select either Active Directory Authentication or Windows Authentication (instead of Window Authentication or Active Directory Integrated Authentication) in the login dialogue so that you can specify the account to be used.
I would accept that as an answer.
August 12, 2016 at 8:06 am
GilaMonster (8/11/2016)
TomThomson (8/10/2016)
GilaMonster (8/10/2016)
First time in years that I'm flying somewhere just for a vacation, no conferences involved. Scotland, to save anyone from wondering.Any particular place
in Scotland? I'm mostly (not always) not in Scotland these days, but maybe we could meet up for a chat and a drink if you would like that provided your location and mine match at some point.Edinburgh until Monday morning (though planning to spend part of Sunday at St Andrews), then Stornoway for a week.
When you get to Stornoway, do yourself a favour, and have a meal in the Digby Chick. I guarantee, you won't be disappointed.
August 12, 2016 at 8:47 am
Brandie Tarvin (8/12/2016)
TomThomson (8/11/2016)
either you are thinking of comething too complex or I don't understand the question: to me it seems obvous (and trivial) that you select either Active Directory Authentication or Windows Authentication (instead of Window Authentication or Active Directory Integrated Authentication) in the login dialogue so that you can specify the account to be used.I would accept that as an answer.
you must be a mindreader - how else couldd you know I meant "SQL" when I typed "Windows" and "Windows" when I typed "Window" ? :hehe:
Tom
August 12, 2016 at 8:47 am
Lynn Pettis (8/11/2016)
Having rules for answering questions makes sense but I have to ask the question, Why? Has as been noted there are several different categories that individuals asking questions may fall into, and many actually fall into several at times. I would be hard pressed to write an article like this as I may not have followed the rules in many past encounters. Every interaction is different and dynamic depending on many variables.
You might be able to provide guidelines, but even then, are you going to enforce them on everyone who attempts to answer a question? We can't all ways get people who ask questions to provide use with what we need to always help, but we still try. Some of us have taken wild shots in the dark and managed to provide the answer (whether the OP understood it enough to support it is another matter).
Rules is probably a poor word choice. Guidelines might be better. We don't have a set of rules for posting, either asking or answering.
However decorum and professionalism have been lacking at times, from all of us. Myself, and I'd say you as well, Lynn. Certainly plenty of others.
These are more here to remind people how to better behave as adults. I get no shortage of complaints on both people asking questions as well as people answering.
August 12, 2016 at 8:48 am
ChrisM@Work (8/12/2016)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (8/11/2016)
...Part of the process noted that we have a few "how to post code, how to ask a question, how to format code" articles. We do not have a "how to answer a question" article, which I think is a good idea.
I'd like to see some general rules and decorum in play here. I know some of you get frustrated, annoyed, etc by posters, but a few nice rules might help remind us of professional behavior.
Any takers on writing? If not, I can tackle it, but I am looking for feedback and ideas on what rules make sense.
Thanks. Keep it simple, and light. We'll review and probably get comments from various people, but I'd like to see this as lightweight and easy to follow as possible.
As one of the people who proposed this, I'm prepared to make a start - then pass the article on to someone else so my crap technique is covered too 😉
Some excellent ideas coming through already.
August 12, 2016 at 9:09 am
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (8/12/2016)
Lynn Pettis (8/11/2016)
Having rules for answering questions makes sense but I have to ask the question, Why? Has as been noted there are several different categories that individuals asking questions may fall into, and many actually fall into several at times. I would be hard pressed to write an article like this as I may not have followed the rules in many past encounters. Every interaction is different and dynamic depending on many variables.
You might be able to provide guidelines, but even then, are you going to enforce them on everyone who attempts to answer a question? We can't all ways get people who ask questions to provide use with what we need to always help, but we still try. Some of us have taken wild shots in the dark and managed to provide the answer (whether the OP understood it enough to support it is another matter).
Rules is probably a poor word choice. Guidelines might be better. We don't have a set of rules for posting, either asking or answering.
However decorum and professionalism have been lacking at times, from all of us. Myself, and I'd say you as well, Lynn. Certainly plenty of others.
These are more here to remind people how to better behave as adults. I get no shortage of complaints on both people asking questions as well as people answering.
Not denying that I have been unprofessional at times, but I have also been called on it fairly quickly. In some cases I have apologized and in others maybe not.
I think SSC does a significantly better job of policing itself than some of the other SQL sites.
August 12, 2016 at 9:26 am
ChrisM@Work (8/12/2016)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (8/11/2016)
...Part of the process noted that we have a few "how to post code, how to ask a question, how to format code" articles. We do not have a "how to answer a question" article, which I think is a good idea.
I'd like to see some general rules and decorum in play here. I know some of you get frustrated, annoyed, etc by posters, but a few nice rules might help remind us of professional behavior.
Any takers on writing? If not, I can tackle it, but I am looking for feedback and ideas on what rules make sense.
As one of the people who proposed this, I'm prepared to make a start - then pass the article on to someone else so my crap technique is covered too 😉
Some excellent ideas coming through already.
One guideline that I usually forget to follow is "Do not feed the trolls" or avoiding to get into pointless discussions which might get off topic.
August 12, 2016 at 9:40 am
Lynn Pettis (8/12/2016)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (8/12/2016)
Lynn Pettis (8/11/2016)
Having rules for answering questions makes sense but I have to ask the question, Why? Has as been noted there are several different categories that individuals asking questions may fall into, and many actually fall into several at times. I would be hard pressed to write an article like this as I may not have followed the rules in many past encounters. Every interaction is different and dynamic depending on many variables.
You might be able to provide guidelines, but even then, are you going to enforce them on everyone who attempts to answer a question? We can't all ways get people who ask questions to provide use with what we need to always help, but we still try. Some of us have taken wild shots in the dark and managed to provide the answer (whether the OP understood it enough to support it is another matter).
Rules is probably a poor word choice. Guidelines might be better. We don't have a set of rules for posting, either asking or answering.
However decorum and professionalism have been lacking at times, from all of us. Myself, and I'd say you as well, Lynn. Certainly plenty of others.
These are more here to remind people how to better behave as adults. I get no shortage of complaints on both people asking questions as well as people answering.
Not denying that I have been unprofessional at times, but I have also been called on it fairly quickly. In some cases I have apologized and in others maybe not.
I think SSC does a significantly better job of policing itself than some of the other SQL sites.
There's less idiocy in the replies here than you tend to find in some of the other sites but nevertheless there's room for improvement.
For fast, accurate and documented assistance in answering your questions, please read this article.
Understanding and using APPLY, (I) and (II) Paul White
Hidden RBAR: Triangular Joins / The "Numbers" or "Tally" Table: What it is and how it replaces a loop Jeff Moden
August 12, 2016 at 11:34 am
ChrisM@Work (8/12/2016)
Lynn Pettis (8/12/2016)
Steve Jones - SSC Editor (8/12/2016)
Lynn Pettis (8/11/2016)
Having rules for answering questions makes sense but I have to ask the question, Why? Has as been noted there are several different categories that individuals asking questions may fall into, and many actually fall into several at times. I would be hard pressed to write an article like this as I may not have followed the rules in many past encounters. Every interaction is different and dynamic depending on many variables.
You might be able to provide guidelines, but even then, are you going to enforce them on everyone who attempts to answer a question? We can't all ways get people who ask questions to provide use with what we need to always help, but we still try. Some of us have taken wild shots in the dark and managed to provide the answer (whether the OP understood it enough to support it is another matter).
Rules is probably a poor word choice. Guidelines might be better. We don't have a set of rules for posting, either asking or answering.
However decorum and professionalism have been lacking at times, from all of us. Myself, and I'd say you as well, Lynn. Certainly plenty of others.
These are more here to remind people how to better behave as adults. I get no shortage of complaints on both people asking questions as well as people answering.
Not denying that I have been unprofessional at times, but I have also been called on it fairly quickly. In some cases I have apologized and in others maybe not.
I think SSC does a significantly better job of policing itself than some of the other SQL sites.
There's less idiocy in the replies here than you tend to find in some of the other sites but nevertheless there's room for improvement.
Agreed. I also agree with Lynn - SSC user police ourselves pretty well. I include myself in the group that's been policed.
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