Abolish Disjointed Time

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 717406

    djackson 22568 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:55 AM

    You are absolutely right, it is something that should be ended and quickly.
    One thing  you missed is businesses such as hospitals that are 24/7/365. It seems a lot of, maybe all, medical clinical charting systems were programmed by people who have no idea how to use universal time, and instead require their systems to be SHUT DOWN to compensate. Some are able to remain up, but require clinicians to jump through hoops in order to chart, and at least one requires adjustments to the times charted to allow the two hour period to be seen as only one hour.
    There really is no value to DST, and quite a few downsides.

    Wow, never thought of this, Mr. Jackson. That's reason enough to abolish this. If anyone made a mistake because they got confused about medication times because of the change, I'd say we should just remove this now.

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 717406

    James Mezei - Thursday, March 8, 2018 6:37 AM

    Much of our thoughts may be shaped by geography yes how far north or south  we live from the equator - from a data point of view changing the clocks useless - from a human living point of view, being in the North I appreciate the longer evening in the brief summer we have but at the same time appreciate it not being pitch dark  when travelling  to and from work for more than 8 weeks a year.

    To me, this is better handled by having orgs adjust hours from summer to winter. Certainly governments could help here, but moving some of your workers to different times, even moving school times could help adjust this without changing time. I might argue that schools should adjust by more than an hour in the winter.

  • below86

    SSChampion

    Points: 11314

    skeleton567 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:40 AM

    below86 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:30 AM

    I think we should spring forward a half an hour this year, then we never change the clocks again.  Get the best of both worlds. IMHO 🙂

    Well, now there is a very logical solution.  Not sure it will work, but an interesting proposal.  Probably makes as much sense as fretting about it all.  Do we also need to change to 48 times zones and use 30-minute increments? 

    Be careful what you ask for.  You just might get it.  Especially if this decision is left in the hands of politicians.

    Just stay with the 24 time zones.  When I run for president I'll make that my number one campaign promise.  I think I could get enough votes on just that to win.  😀

    -------------------------------------------------------------
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  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 717406

    RonKyle - Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:10 AM

    I wonder if in the age of computers it could be possible to do away with time zones and return to the time when noon at a location was when the sun was directly overhead.  With the speed of trains it became impossible to publish schedules that had the correct times for each location.  I suppose with the need to standardize other things that have come along since, like TV schedules, would still make it impossible to return to the old days.

    If that's the case, when the days lengthen, I prefer taking an hour of daylight that would occur while most people are still sleeping and moving it to a time of day when most are awake.  This might be more important as you move farther north from the equator.

    I'd actually prefer we all go to UTC and then learn to adjust the time we wake up. That would simplify cross border items and within a relatively short amount of time, we'd know that I wake up at 15:00 and go to bed at 0500.

    However, I realize the majority of the world lives, works, exists in a single time zone, and rarely travels outside, so I'm fine with keeping time zones.

  • LadyRuna

    SSCrazy

    Points: 2174

    I'm so happy I moved to Arizona. Arizona doesn't meddle with its clocks so now I no longer have to deal with the silliness of adjusting all my clocks twice a year. I just set them properly upon arriving in Arizona and they remain correct the whole year. [Arizona totally refused to follow the rest of the country when DST was originally proposed, stating that AZ didn't need any more sunshine that it was already getting in abundance]

    DST causes all kinds of issues with some software - I recall the banking software I supported years ago which would have major issues with running jobs that were scheduled near the time change hours (running them twice or not at all would cause accounting errors - so we had to remind software users to manually run the jobs at the end of the work day and then turn the jobs off for the evening so they wouldn't cause troubles).

  • skeleton567

    SSCertifiable

    Points: 5002

    djackson 22568 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:55 AM

    You are absolutely right, it is something that should be ended and quickly.
    One thing  you missed is businesses such as hospitals that are 24/7/365. It seems a lot of, maybe all, medical clinical charting systems were programmed by people who have no idea how to use universal time, and instead require their systems to be SHUT DOWN to compensate. Some are able to remain up, but require clinicians to jump through hoops in order to chart, and at least one requires adjustments to the times charted to allow the two hour period to be seen as only one hour.
    There really is no value to DST, and quite a few downsides.

    OK, I hear you, but I believe most critical meds are dispensed by devices that will be working on a time INTERVAL instead of clock-time.  And most of these also will be for a defined period and not permanent.  So, the device time versus clock time is maybe not all that critical? 
    Unless you are in a situation of providing legal depositions such as we are at this 'point in time', (sorry, but I've never been questioned regarding ST or DST), it may not be all that critical. 

    I have a number of meds that I need to take on a daily or twice-daily schedule, but my doctor has never mentioned any need for a specific hour, but rather at an interval such as take the med the night before going in to the lab for a blood draw in the morning. 

    The 'value' of DST may just be in leaving things alone instead of triggering all of the side effects of all the system changes to undo it.  How many of you recall the angst of the Y2K century change?  Do you want to go through that again?

    Rick

    I can see clearly now....it's 2020!

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 717406

    Brian Risley - Thursday, March 8, 2018 8:25 AM

    Florida legislature just passed a bill keeping FL on Daylight Savings Time.  It still has to pass the governor and then DC has to change laws that don't allow one to stay on it all year.
    What this  does to  timing in FL  will be a mess.  Since TV network feeds are based on  whatever current time mode is in effect, when they switch, we will be an hour earlier.  This really throws a monkey wrench to TV programming, as it will change times when the rest of the east coast changes to DST.
     
    It creates more havoc for business with scheduling a meeting, as Atlanta would be at one time, Jacksonville at another, and it would depend on the time change date for Atlanta if they are different!  Talk about the mess that travel will be!
    Staying on it in the winter means we are dealing with it being darker longer in the mornings, which is a safety issue with kids catching the bus as early as 5:30 or 6:00 currently, with the sun not coming up until after 7.  In the winter that will go to 8, affecting more and younger kids!  (High school is earliest in our area, followed by elementary, then middle school, so the time shift will go into the elementary bus schedules making it dark for most of them.)  (And don't say that schools can change their times, that would have major impact on working parents!)
    As an astronomer who does outreach to schools, having the sun set an hour later in the winter makes our ability to do night observing events for kids, especially elementary, not possible as it gets dark too late.  We already can't easily do events when it is in DST for most of the year!

    They are pushing it as a tourist attraction benefit.  Tourists should just get up earlier! (Oh wait, that would affect traffic!)
    If this passes I expect that it will be repealed in short order once people realize what a mess a few legislators got us into!

    It won't be that bad. A year will clean things up, as people get used to it. Many people live near a time border, and they understand. TV schedules just adjust. In Mountain time, we are always an hour off from anything published (you see EST, sometimes CST,  and PST). We tend to follow most things in a "normal" schedule, but often national stuff is an hour earlier than the time it's shown in CST.

    It's an annoyance, but you adjust. What I'd like is to stop the twice a year additional adjusting.

  • GeorgeCopeland

    SSCertifiable

    Points: 6913

    Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:01 AM

    I'd actually prefer we all go to UTC and then learn to adjust the time we wake up.

    Oh good grief, Steve.

  • Brian Risley

    Valued Member

    Points: 68

    Steve, changing times part way through a school year wreaks havoc on parent schedules.  Just really not doable!

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 717406

    skeleton567 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:03 AM

    The 'value' of DST may just be in leaving things alone instead of triggering all of the side effects of all the system changes to undo it.  How many of you recall the angst of the Y2K century change?  Do you want to go through that again?

    My argument here would be that we moved DST under President Bush. It wasn't that bad. If we abolished it, who would really notice? We'd need a couple years for OSes to update, but if we just stopped, it wouldn't remotely disrupt anything.

  • Brian Risley

    Valued Member

    Points: 68

    Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:08 AM

    skeleton567 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:03 AM

    The 'value' of DST may just be in leaving things alone instead of triggering all of the side effects of all the system changes to undo it.  How many of you recall the angst of the Y2K century change?  Do you want to go through that again?

    My argument here would be that we moved DST under President Bush. It wasn't that bad. If we abolished it, who would really notice? We'd need a couple years for OSes to update, but if we just stopped, it wouldn't remotely disrupt anything.

    Abolish and keep on standard I am all for.  Moving to DST only I am not!

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 717406

    Brian Risley - Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:06 AM

    Steve, changing times part way through a school year wreaks havoc on parent schedules.  Just really not doable!

    I mostly agree. It would have to be a coordinated effort with employers and care providers to work. Or just start/end school w/ winter times in consideration. There's work to be done with schools already, and this could be a part of it.

    In the US, though, I know sports drives a lot of this and makes changing schedules hard.

  • djackson 22568

    SSChampion

    Points: 11713

    Steve Jones - SSC Editor - Thursday, March 8, 2018 8:56 AM

    djackson 22568 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:55 AM

    You are absolutely right, it is something that should be ended and quickly.
    One thing  you missed is businesses such as hospitals that are 24/7/365. It seems a lot of, maybe all, medical clinical charting systems were programmed by people who have no idea how to use universal time, and instead require their systems to be SHUT DOWN to compensate. Some are able to remain up, but require clinicians to jump through hoops in order to chart, and at least one requires adjustments to the times charted to allow the two hour period to be seen as only one hour.
    There really is no value to DST, and quite a few downsides.

    Wow, never thought of this, Mr. Jackson. That's reason enough to abolish this. If anyone made a mistake because they got confused about medication times because of the change, I'd say we should just remove this now.

    Given that there are supposed to be hundreds of thousands of deaths in the US each year due to errors, i have to agree. When attempting to improve a process, identifying potential causes of errors and eliminating them can go a long way. I don't know if any studies have attempted to determine what percentage are caused by issues like this, but as they say - "if it saves even one life"...  OK, I don't really buy that argument but I do agree with getting rid of DST. We have an idea of the cost from when it was changed to include a longer time period. Given the cost of changing back and forth each year, I think the ROI would be worth it.

    Dave

  • skeleton567

    SSCertifiable

    Points: 5002

    Brian Risley - Thursday, March 8, 2018 8:25 AM

    Florida legislature just passed a bill keeping FL on Daylight Savings Time.  It still has to pass the governor and then DC has to change laws that don't allow one to stay on it all year.
    What this  does to  timing in FL  will be a mess.  Since TV network feeds are based on  whatever current time mode is in effect, when they switch, we will be an hour earlier.  This really throws a monkey wrench to TV programming, as it will change times when the rest of the east coast changes to DST.
     
    It creates more havoc for business with scheduling a meeting, as Atlanta would be at one time, Jacksonville at another, and it would depend on the time change date for Atlanta if they are different!  Talk about the mess that travel will be!
    Staying on it in the winter means we are dealing with it being darker longer in the mornings, which is a safety issue with kids catching the bus as early as 5:30 or 6:00 currently, with the sun not coming up until after 7.  In the winter that will go to 8, affecting more and younger kids!  (High school is earliest in our area, followed by elementary, then middle school, so the time shift will go into the elementary bus schedules making it dark for most of them.)  (And don't say that schools can change their times, that would have major impact on working parents!)
    As an astronomer who does outreach to schools, having the sun set an hour later in the winter makes our ability to do night observing events for kids, especially elementary, not possible as it gets dark too late.  We already can't easily do events when it is in DST for most of the year!

    They are pushing it as a tourist attraction benefit.  Tourists should just get up earlier! (Oh wait, that would affect traffic!)
    If this passes I expect that it will be repealed in short order once people realize what a mess a few legislators got us into!

    Well, poor Florida.  I guess the empirical evidence is still what this discussion has done to my morning, which thanks to all of this, is actually MORE than an hour off.  But of course, I'm retired so it makes little difference.  Cest la vie, or however you spell it.

    Rick

    I can see clearly now....it's 2020!

  • djackson 22568

    SSChampion

    Points: 11713

    skeleton567 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 9:03 AM

    djackson 22568 - Thursday, March 8, 2018 7:55 AM

    You are absolutely right, it is something that should be ended and quickly.
    One thing  you missed is businesses such as hospitals that are 24/7/365. It seems a lot of, maybe all, medical clinical charting systems were programmed by people who have no idea how to use universal time, and instead require their systems to be SHUT DOWN to compensate. Some are able to remain up, but require clinicians to jump through hoops in order to chart, and at least one requires adjustments to the times charted to allow the two hour period to be seen as only one hour.
    There really is no value to DST, and quite a few downsides.

    OK, I hear you, but I believe most critical meds are dispensed by devices that will be working on a time INTERVAL instead of clock-time.  And most of these also will be for a defined period and not permanent.  So, the device time versus clock time is maybe not all that critical? 
    Unless you are in a situation of providing legal depositions such as we are at this 'point in time', (sorry, but I've never been questioned regarding ST or DST), it may not be all that critical. 

    I have a number of meds that I need to take on a daily or twice-daily schedule, but my doctor has never mentioned any need for a specific hour, but rather at an interval such as take the med the night before going in to the lab for a blood draw in the morning. 

    The 'value' of DST may just be in leaving things alone instead of triggering all of the side effects of all the system changes to undo it.  How many of you recall the angst of the Y2K century change?  Do you want to go through that again?

    No, most meds are passed by nurses. It is a huge portion of their patient care workload. There is a huge difference between taking blood pressure medication once a day and passing meds to a patient struggling to survive. Patients die in hospitals, frequently despite the best care possible, but lawyers have to get their share and look to any discrepancy they can to convince a jury that it was someone's fault.

    Dave

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