What's the Right Thing?
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This story is interesting. I saw this yesterday and decided I'd go ahead and use this as the basis for a poll. It's semi-technical in that it involves issues with an application, or possibly data, in an online operation.
Apparently Amazon advertised a "buy one, get one free" promotion on DVD sets just before Christmas. When people added these to their cart and used the coupon, they received a double discount instead, essentially paying $0.00 for their 2 sets. When Amazon realized the mistake, after Christmas, they sent notes to customers saying that unless the box-sets were returned unopened, their credit cards would be charged. Apparently yesterday Amazon started charging credit cards and there are various threads (here and here).
This was obviously some mistake, either data related when the coupon was entered, or maybe application related if there's code that handles this sort of discount. In either case, there was a mistake made and now Amazon has decided to recoup money (I have no idea of the scale of this), or this was a deceptive practice by Amazon to "test the waters" and see if they could get away with something like this in the future.
So after reading the debate, and thinking about it, I thought I'd ask those that maintain the system, that deal with bad data and errors in applications, those that might get yelled at if they made this mistake on one of their systems.
What's the right thing to do?
I have to say that I've used services like Slickdeals.net, looking for specific problems in companies' sales practices. If there are loopholes, can we exploit them? If I'd purchased DVDs from Amazon and not gotten charged, should I now be charged? Should I get compensation for the hassles and efforts of returning the items?
I'd like to think that I've a fairly moral person. I say fairly because the line blurs at times and it's hard to know what is fair to both me and the other party. I've corrected waiters and cashiers when they've made mistakes before. I think I'd return the items to Amazon if I didn't want them, or just accept the charges if I'd used them as a gift or opened them.
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I probably would return the item or pay for it. But I would also probably not use Amazon again.
I don't have the links for the stories, but...
In England, a vacuum manufacturer (I think it was Hoover) offered free flights to anyone buying their vacuum. Lots of people bought them and then planned overseas (expensive) flights. The company finally permitted it as it was their mistake - and a HUGE one.
In the U.S., StarBucks sent an email with a coupon to several people and gave permission to share them with family and friends. They didn't expect them to be sent all over the place. But they made good on them.
All of those companies made good on their mistakes. Why can't Amazon?
-SQLBill
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Okay, found out that StarBucks made good on the coupons for a while and then stopped them.
-SQLBill
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If a promotion said 'buy one, get one free' wouldn't you expect to have to pay for one and get one free ? the only possible confusion here is when the payment is obviously incorrect - and it is very obvious it's a mistake.
I'd be chasing up the payments AND be on the pink slip warpath for an error of this kind.
As a customer I'd expect to be chased up for payment so if I really wanted what was on offer I'd notify them of the error and come back later.
I don't see that this rates any further discussion, maybe others differ.
DB
The systems fine with no users loggged in. Can we keep it that way ?br> -
I hope I would have contacted Amazon to query the pricing.
DBuchan, I don't think I'd be on the "pink slip warpath". People make mistakes. Good people make mistakes. Disciplinary action, yes. Noted in the next annual review, yes. Fired for what could be a typo? Probably not.
If it's an application fault then who do you blame? The developer? Hey, we pay testers for a reason. Fire the tester? For a fault they didn't create? No.
When you go down that route, you stifle innovation and creativity - staff won't be willing to "risk" suggesting or trying new things.
What should Amazon do for the customers concerned? If they allow the customers to keep the goods for free then those who've already paid or have been honest and contacted them up front lose out. If they charge them, they cause bad feeling and some customers will not return. How about they meet them half-way? Let them have the goods at cost price.
It might be worth adding a little logic to the check out code:
// Check that the order total (the final bill with vouchers added)
// is not a zero amount.
if (order.FinalBill + order.TotalVouchers == 0.0f)
{
// Something's wrong. The order total before taking off any tokens
// is zero gbp/$/whatever.
}
Drop this in after vouchers have been discounted, or just check the amount is not zero before vounchers are taken off the total. And you're done.
There is no problem so great that it can not be solved by caffeine and chocolate. -
I think Amazon's problem is: What is going to cost us more - the error or the bad publicity?
As a potential customer, after this story and the "price rises" story before Christmas, I'd be thinking 'Do I trust Amazon's systems?' Even 'Do I trust Amazon?' At the moment, the answers are 'No'.
As for the goods and payment: I'd be inclined to keep the goods and not pay for them. Many (smaller) shops in UK have notices at the till "Please check your change before leaving as mistakes cannot be rectified afterwards." I think the same applies to the retailer - physical or online; Amazon just need to be more careful.
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f this applied to UK customers purchasing from Amazon.co.uk (that is, everything is within UK jurisdiction), then I think UK law is fairly clear...
If the supplier says thay will charge (say) UKP 5.00 but when you pay they take UKP 1.00, you as a customer have an obligation to point out to the vendor their mistake at the point of sale. If the vendor does not correct their mistake at that point, and accepts UKP 1.00 from you they can not return at a later date and demand the missing UKP 4.00.
However, if the customer does not point out to the vendor their mistake at the point of sale, the vendor is entitled to return within a reasonable time to demand the missing UKP 4.00.
This seems reasonable to me. If some customers told Amazon at the time of sale they were getting a double discount but Amazon supplied the goods at that price, then they should be entitled to keep them without paying anything extra. If other customers hoped they could get away without telling Amazon their mistake, then they are now finding they have not got away with it...
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Amazon messed up, that's true. However, the deal specifically states "buy one full price DVD, get one free", now every single person (with willful intent or not) did not buy a DVD at full price.
Yes, this was a mistake by Amazon, but it just goes to show the mentality of some consumers. The first thing to my mind would be 'hold on a sec, it's not charging me for either of these DVDs... Stop there, it will only come back and bite me in the ass'.
If this was a mistake such as the Starbucks voucher incident (you can't legally and concretely define 'friend' and therefore can send the vouchers on to anybody) then I would understand. Terms and Conditions on offers are there for the protection of both consumers and companies; just because people can't be bothered to read them, doesn't mean that they don't apply.
Those individuals who decided that it would be a good idea to get a lot of 'free' DVDs this way should rightfully be charged, learn the price of dishonesty (because that's basically what it boils down to) and move on. They tried, they failed. Move on.
Morality is a huge and contested subject, what goes in one community doesn't in another. If there was a stand outside your local store full of DVDs that had a huge, colourful "Buy one, get one free" sign over it yet the DVDs themselves had no price on; would you help yourself? I think not.
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I'm not sure what international laws are in effect, but a contract is formed when the "accept" button is clicked. At a legal point of view wouldn't you agree that the contract was as stated, to purchase one and receive another for free.
The purchaser is under an obligation to offer there part of the "consideration" - legal term that refers to the "giving up of something for something in return", in this case the two DVDs for the price of one.
I also recall that there is a precedence in the legal system of the England that states that if someone leaves a shop, knowing that the cashier has given them too much change in return for their purchase, this is theft. Theft Act 1968.
In R v Gilks [1972] CA the defendant was held to be guilty after knowingly keeping the over-paid winnings from a bookmaker. A quick read around the subject indicates that intention is highly significant and the point at which one decides not to pay.
Personally if it was me, I would pay up. Too many people want something for nothing in this world and it's a huge social problem.
I agree with Ian that lining people against a wall and shooting them isn't a good option and accept that the precedence for the future. Also people will be unhappy to offer their suggestions.
Apologies for going on a bit, and jumping from Contract Law to Theft !
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I don't know about not sacking someone for this kind of system error - OK this is a pretty minor incident for Amazon but last Christmas we used a company called Choc Express (I think) for our christmas gifts.
We bought about £400 worth of presents, but their system screwed up on the multiple delivery addresses and sent all the deliveries to my Mother in Law, who was of course suitably impressed.
They gave us a refund and allowed us to keep the stuff, because essentially they'd made us look a right couple of scrooges to all the relatives who didn't get anything from us for christmas, but this problem must have cost the business a serious amount of money (not sure if they're still in business).
Surely someone has to face the firing squad for this kind of mistake? It is a simple matter of testing the thing.....
Actually we do quite well for free online chocolate - my wife sent me some chocolate brownies for our anniversary with the message "Happy Anniversary", but the French student who was transcribing the messages read it as anniversaire, which of course means birthday. My wife queried this (merely out of curiosity) and they gave her a full refund (which they didn't need to, but there you go).
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The right thing for the customer is to notify Amazon about the error at the time of purchase. The right thing for Amazon is to not charge those who notified them of the error at the time of purchase and charge those who decided they "deserved" the free DVD.
Jack Corbett
Consultant - Straight Path Solutions
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The right thing to do would be to pay for the item or return it as indicated in the Amazon response communication, because that was the agreement of the orignial contract. To me, this would be no different than a cashier giving the incorrect change back.
However, I believe it may be to Amazon's advantage to take this opportunity to offer something to their customers in exchange for inconviencing them. This would have given Amazon customers a reason to keep shopping at Amazon and could potentially boost their sales.
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On the customer side, there are a couple cases. The first is that you wanted to buy the item, knew about the discount, and then at checkout the price was zero - what do you do? Not buy because its too cheap? Wonder if you misunderstood the discount? Figure they screwed up and won't notice? Not like their is a customer service rep standing there watching the transaction (to look out for Amazon) or for you to question about the price. I don't fault anyone for continuing the transaction, but they should expect that Amazon might figure it out, and surely they shouldn't be broadcasting on how to get a free DVD. One other note - just to give the customer a fair shake - many places make their money on shipping and handling, so even free usually isn't free.
The pricing thing is a minor mistake, not big enough in itself to stop me shopping there. I do think its a great chance for some customer service though. Offer some options such as; send it back to us at our cost, pay for the 2nd DVD at a discount, here's a coupon for a discount, etc. I think depending on the volume & price, a great option would have been to say (somehow) 'we made a mistake on the pricing of a recent transaction with us and while we may not always be able to do so, in this case we're not going to charge you'. I can see if it was 10k DVD's maybe the money is meaningful, but what if it was 10k riding lawn mowers or something?
Excuses and wondering aside, I can't see being overly mad at Amazon for wanting to be paid fairly.
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The right thing for the customer is to pay for what they purchased. It is no different than if you received too much change at a cash register. If you notice that the cashier handed you an extra $10 and you put it in your pocket, you are being dishonest.
If you were expecting to pay $50 in an online transaction, but ended up paying $0, you know that you were not charged correctly. It's a little harder to straighten out, but complaining about receiving the charge on your credit card would be dishonest too.
Scott
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What's legal? See above (sounds about right).
What's moral? IMHO:
He/she agreed to purchase two for the price of one. When Amazon shipped the two, it fulfilled its part of the contract. The customer now owes Amazon "the price of one".
1) Each ethical customer should have contacted Amazon ASAP, at whatever point he/she recognized that the actual charge was not the agreed-upon deal. Early responses could have limited Amazon's exposure to the error.
2) Amazon is legitimate in pursuing the agreed upon amount. Perhaps a $1/$2/$5 credit on future purchases would improve the PR and help with acknowledging the "mea culpa".
Mike Hinds Lead Database Administrator1st Source BankMCP, MCTS
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