June 4, 2008 at 7:57 am
"Software developers don't get sued very often where doctors live with the very real possibility of lawsuits all the time."
I can't remeber the last time a software program was responsible for taking lives or amputating the wrong limb, or misdiagnosing a patient into a comma. Granted doctors have a tough job, but they also compensated for that job and the risks they take...I don't know many software developers that have a salary on par with a brain or heart surgeon.
June 4, 2008 at 8:04 am
On the subject of being asked to fix stuff by friends/random people at parties and such, I've had both. I used to be an EMT, and have just enough knowledge of medicine to get myself in trouble, but a lot of people mistake that for expertise. I, of course, know more about computers that is probably healthy for me, and a lot of people also mistake that for expertise.
So I came up with two solutions to medical questions. If it's an attractive woman, I tell her to take off her clothing so I can check ....; otherwise, I suggest amputation. I do both in such a way as to make it very, very clear that I'm joking. So far, these have worked out well.
And one solution for computer problems: Unplug it and the problem will go away. (You'd be amazed how even the most severely malwared computer will no longer broadcast spam and steal bank accounts if it's unplugged!)
Of course, in either case, if it's a person with a genuine need, and I have the time to do something, I will do what I can to help. Medical: I'll tell them what I know, and suggest seeing a doctor; IT: I'll tell them what I know, and suggest seeing a tech. What goes around, comes around, and I am strongly in favor of helping people.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
June 4, 2008 at 8:05 am
Why are we, as a profession, always looking for another profession or avocation to compare ourselves to?
The easy answer (i guess) is because the IT industry is relatively new. I'm getting tired of all of the:
Developer #1 - "development is like sculpting"
Developer #2 - 'No, it is like Painting"
Software Engineer #1 - "Calling me a developer is insulting, and no, it is like being an auto mechanic"
Software Engineer #2 - "I don't mind getting called a developer, just don't call me a programmer! And software development is like writing a poem about a tree..."
...writing and forums that seem to go on around the web.
I wonder if early doctors (fuzzy concept, deciding what were the first 'Doctors', I know) sat around and said "Medicine is like shamanism, except for..."
Oh well, this whole thing just strikes me as funny.
June 4, 2008 at 8:10 am
I have always explained it to users and Management with a comparison to the medical practice. There have been people sued over data loss though, and we don't make anything like doctor's do (the majority anyway).
June 4, 2008 at 8:11 am
Rick Magnuson (6/4/2008)
As a whole, most DBA's aren't working on mission critical applications that could potentially jeopardize one's life.
Neither are most doctors. The vast majority of medical work is alleviation of annoyance-level symptoms. Outside of TV shows, even most visits to the ER are far from life-threatening.
Mild fevers may not be in the same category as cosmetic surgery, but neither of those is dealing with a life-threatening (mission critical) situation.
Of course, as age comes into the equation, more and more people see doctors about more critical things. But for the majority of a person's life, they're more likely to see a doctor about an anual checkup than about open-heart surgery.
- Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
Property of The Thread
"Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon
June 4, 2008 at 8:16 am
Rick Magnuson (6/4/2008)
As a whole, most DBA's aren't working on mission critical applications that could potentially jeopardize one's life.
Lose a few million customers' bank account info (not just the account # - everything about the account), and I'll bet you there are a few heart attacks in the process.....
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
June 4, 2008 at 8:37 am
paulm (6/4/2008)
"Software developers don't get sued very often where doctors live with the very real possibility of lawsuits all the time."I can't remeber the last time a software program was responsible for taking lives or amputating the wrong limb, or misdiagnosing a patient into a comma. Granted doctors have a tough job, but they also compensated for that job and the risks they take...I don't know many software developers that have a salary on par with a brain or heart surgeon.
There've been some pretty high-profile software issues with flight control systems in military fly-by-wire applications. Pretty sure that hasn't done a great deal for the pilot's or passengers' health....
(not that I'm suggesting we're all working on that kind of stuff)
Semper in excretia, suus solum profundum variat
June 4, 2008 at 8:49 am
One of the issues that we face is to manage an IT project is to insure that we listen to the user and make the best good faith effort to meet the expressed needs. What then is delivered to the user is what they asked for tested, certified and paid for.
The user accepts that software with the understanding that it is as it is. If there are errors then there are errors. The wise user either maintains a contract with the developers or has a trained staff on site who can maintain the codebase. But one the project is turned over to them it is turned over with the understanding that is 'as is'. This limits the liability of the developer to some degree.
I am certain that this has been said before but Doctors pay a much higher price for failure then we pay for a bug in the code. We pay in productive hours lost where doctors pay in lives lost or damaged. We are not like them in that aspect.
God grant them the wisdom to get it right, and us too!
Good Series Steve!
Not all gray hairs are Dinosaurs!
June 4, 2008 at 9:12 am
Thanks and the comparison is to stimulate debate. Think about it, we teach and learn by example, we are always comparing A to B, trying to better understand the world.
Lots of doctors don't "save" or "jeopardizes" lives. There are lots of everyday issues with doctors that I think relate to software. And they're an old, respected, well-established profession.
From my point of view, the general practice physician, someone that handles regular, routine, and non-emergent cases, was the comparison point to the software developer that does the same.
I don't think I did, and didn't intend to, compare building software to saving lives or someone's health. I was comparing the process of practicing medicine to the process of building software.
Also, it would be hard to combine the threads. Not sure how to do it.
June 4, 2008 at 10:12 am
Lawsuits are not as uncommon as you'd think. Lots of failed IT projects end up in litigation. Most IT firms require their subcontractors to carry liability insurance, and the rates are much higher if you do "application development" than if you do "consulting".
Of course, in most cases, people don't die or become permanently disabled from bad code, so the rates are much, much lower (about $50 per year per employee).
June 4, 2008 at 5:32 pm
Down here in Brazil it seems to be the other way around - doctors almost never get sued (unless they make really unexcusable mistakes such as forgetting gloves or needles inside the pacient's belly), while software companies get sued every now and then for not completing projects, or missing deadlines. In general, the culture here seems to be that corporations are evil, while the individual (and the state, for that matter) are always right, so even in the medical errors, one would rather sue the hospital than the doctor, the same goes for the software company and the individual developer. Since the state is a big player in the health industry, but not in the software industry, there's a bias pro-hospitals in laws and courts that avoids a large number of law suits (despite the humongous number of medical mistakes).
June 5, 2008 at 8:59 am
Debugging has a relationship to diagnosis. Doctors do practice medicine. It is not an exact science. A patient comes in and explains what is wrong. The doctor may need to ask more questions or have more tests performed. Based on the symptoms, answers, and test results, the doctor determines the most likely cause of the sickness or pain and treats the patient for that. Sometimes they are incorrect and further tests are needed.
We debug in much the same way. Hopefully, I test well, before it goes into production so disasters do not occur. Depending on the industry a programming disaster could, in rare occasions, be a tragedy. In most cases they are just trammatic to the users.
Q
Please take a number. Now serving emergency 1,203,894
June 5, 2008 at 12:43 pm
Again, you are talking Project Management, albiet Project Management processes are little used in the medical profession because timeliness in which a (health) solution must be applied. But perhaps for finding long term solutions the medical profession could also benefit from adhering to PM principles.
The most amazing thing I see in this analogy is the possibility for developing an general purpose application immune system to detect and erradicate the most common bugs. In fact, I believe it has already been done to some extent, just not generally applied.
"Any fool can write code that a computer can understand. Good programmers write code that humans can understand." -- Martin Fowler
June 6, 2008 at 8:50 am
I've heard that it referred to many times that doctors "practice medicine" and that it's as much an art as a science. After all, while we are all similar biologically, there are unique differences in many of us, and so many of the diseases and other work doctors deal with are very similar so a really good doctor doesn't just play the odds, but tailors his treatments to the individual.
One thing I didn't see anybody comment on was how a doctor provides individualized treatment. This is something I can relate to in the software we develop. We have our windows system fielded in 6 locations currently. For the most part, it is the same program. However, each location has a couple things that are different (that's government for you :ermm: ), so we have to create a separate build for each location. As much as possible, I try to create/update things that can be used the same one at each location, but that is not always possible.
I don't know how many of you do this type of development, but it does take more effort on our part to make updates. Often, someone will fix a problem for a specific location and not change the code for the other locations. This might be where we would differ from doctors (at least I would hope they would remember a specific treatment and use it on me if applicable).
Ian.
"If you are going through hell, keep going."
-- Winston Churchill
June 6, 2008 at 12:29 pm
Hi guys, have you ever made a bugger-up with a program that you developed that caused data to be lost. Well, it happened to me and the client had to go back to files of a year or two back to have it recaptured. Other than making me feel very horrible about it I came of scotfree. Fortunately we had a good disclaimer in our contract with the clients. That, I would think, would be what doctors also do. Maybe not a disclaimer but when they need to perform a life threatening operation and/or treatment, certainly they must explain the dangers to their patients. Sometimes, though they do make big mistakes (people die) and get sued for that. Steve although you said that this is not the punch line of your article, I still need to say, our mistakes is not as serious as those of doctors. In comparison, doctors take (hopefully) their job serious and do their best for their patients. We, IT people, should know that we work with peoples business/personal data. What would happen for instance if we develop a system for a doctor to do all his/her patient info and you lose their data and critical info about a patient gets lost.
:-PManie Verster
Developer
Johannesburg
South Africa
I can do all things through Christ who strengthens me. - Holy Bible
I am a man of fixed and unbending principles, the first of which is to be flexible at all times. - Everett Mckinley Dirkson (Well, I am trying. - Manie Verster)
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