Guest Editorial: Improving Northwind

  • Gift Peddie

    SSC Guru

    Points: 73570

    There are more people in the project than tables in Northwind so now we know why the project is stalled. Northwind just needs table transfer from AdventureWorks to Northwind so it can be about thirty to fifty tables not toy like the current Northwind which makes developers think a database can be a file but not as big as AdventureWorks which takes database skills to understand.

    Kind regards,
    Gift Peddie

  • mhaskins

    Ten Centuries

    Points: 1145

    Steve Jones - Editor (3/11/2009)


    I tend to think that we ought to have separate sample dbs.

    GSquared (3/11/2009)


    Separate databases also works.

    I love the way it sounds much more official when it is someone else's idea - or you can re-read my post on page 1.

    No - don't bother - it sounds better the way these guys put it.;)

    Mia

    I have come to the conclusion that the top man has one principle responsibility: to provide an atmosphere in which creative mavericks can do useful work.
    -- David M. Ogilvy

  • DPhillips-731960

    Hall of Fame

    Points: 3904

    Maybe it is best to leave Northwind alone. However, I do like GSquared's idea also. Maybe this is something to latch onto AdventureWorks, since it was built to take things a bit further anyway.

  • Chris_K

    Newbie

    Points: 3

    Check out these two URLS 🙂

    http://www.hanselman.com/blog/CommunityCallToActionNOTNorthwind.aspx

    http://www.codeplex.com/NorthwindCommunity

    Edited: My Bad, didn't see this already referenced above. Doh.

  • David Reed-223505

    SSCrazy

    Points: 2456

    We did get some great feedback on AdventureWorksLT @ the summit and some folks volunteered to begin doing work to make it what the community needs it to be. I'm going through the "key takeaways" from the AW vNext session this week. Filing work items @ CodePlex (and volunteering to do some of the work) are very much welcomed. We're ramping up to do the Kilimanjaro revisions to AW, etc.

    For the record, we're willing to accept ideas on !AdventureWorks databases (that's NOT AdventureWorks for the T-SQL-only coders), too, especially if you're going to do the creative work.

    Also note that the principal reasons that our brethren (and sistren) in DevDiv give for continuing to use Northwind instead of AdventureWorks are:

    1. The Visual Studio tools don't support the "new" data types (some of which have been around since Yukon).

    2. AdventureWorks is too complicated, too normalized, too not-Northwind.

    If you don't like AdventureWorks (which is fine -- I won't take it personally), tell us what you'd rather see in terms of scenario, industry/vertical, whatever. I've asked lots before, and I'm still listening... http://msftdbprodsamples.codeplex.com/WorkItem/List.aspx

    At the risk of starting another holy war, it's routinely alleged that AW "violates best practices". Tell me which are your pet "best practices" and how they're violated. It'll be fun to watch everyone else disagree.

    :hehe:

  • DPhillips-731960

    Hall of Fame

    Points: 3904

    David Reed (3/11/2009)


    ... At the risk of starting another holy war, it's routinely alleged that AW "violates best practices". Tell me which are your pet "best practices" and how they're violated. It'll be fun to watch everyone else disagree.

    :hehe:

    I think that "holy war" is because there are some things that are done only in certain situations. However, in a "training" environment (and the samples), one is taught more about how many different things can be done, but not so much when it is appropriate to use what where... that comes with experience, and heaps upon heaps of listening, evaluation, study, and some testing.

    I think everyone has some projects in the past they would shudder at if they go back and look at what they did, and wonder, "What was I thinking?!"

    Best practice, in practice does not always equal best speed or implementation. It is the golden guide, but of necessity must be anchored in what is best for the task at hand.

  • Phil Factor

    SSC-Insane

    Points: 20064

    David,

    I got a strange feeling of doom when the Codeplex project to revive NorthWind started. It seems very quiet now. A sample database needs an immediate purpose. It has got to be awkward not to have it. As a community of users here we have a requirement for something reasonably lightweight that we can use for demoing things. Because AdventureWorks exists, and it is very wonderful, isn't a reason for suggesting that there shouldn't be others. I'd argue that it is perfectly legitimate to want to produce such a thing purely for SSCs own needs. The reason I brought up the subject of Northwind is that it illustrates the point that AdventureWorks cannot be all things to all men. It still gets used - not just because it doesn't support the new data types, but for its virtues. I still use it as well as AdventureWorks. in fact I prefer it for a lot of purposes such as teaching. I suppose I ought to confess that I even use PUBS occasionally, bless it.

    Best wishes,
    Phil Factor
    Simple Talk

  • GSquared

    SSC Guru

    Points: 260824

    mhaskins (3/11/2009)


    Steve Jones - Editor (3/11/2009)


    I tend to think that we ought to have separate sample dbs.

    GSquared (3/11/2009)


    Separate databases also works.

    I love the way it sounds much more official when it is someone else's idea - or you can re-read my post on page 1.

    No - don't bother - it sounds better the way these guys put it.;)

    Actually, I was agreeing with both of you. I brought up my idea, you and Steve brought up a multi-database idea, and I agreed that would work too. And, yes, I did see your post before I wrote mine.

    But I sure am glad the way I put it sounded better. :w00t:

    - Gus "GSquared", RSVP, OODA, MAP, NMVP, FAQ, SAT, SQL, DNA, RNA, UOI, IOU, AM, PM, AD, BC, BCE, USA, UN, CF, ROFL, LOL, ETC
    Property of The Thread

    "Nobody knows the age of the human race, but everyone agrees it's old enough to know better." - Anon

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 719898

    I'd be happy to host some project here. If someone wanted to start a sample, we could do it as an article, host the download, and then have someone modify it over time based on comments.

  • Gift Peddie

    SSC Guru

    Points: 73570

    Here is the current 13 tables Northwind compatibility 100. The next question is Adventureworks Lite a database not sure so it is ANSI NULL. I have made changes to all existing data types as needed so the uploaded Northwind is using Nvarchar(max) and Vabinary(max).

    :Whistling:

    Kind regards,
    Gift Peddie

  • David Reed-223505

    SSCrazy

    Points: 2456

    Phil Factor (3/11/2009)


    Because AdventureWorks exists, and it is very wonderful, isn't a reason for suggesting that there shouldn't be others. I'd argue that it is perfectly legitimate to want to produce such a thing purely for SSCs own needs. The reason I brought up the subject of Northwind is that it illustrates the point that AdventureWorks cannot be all things to all men.

    No reason not to suggest so indeed! We've always intended that there be other sample databases... It just hasn't happened yet.

    Although AdventureWorks was originally conceived to be all things to all men when it was birthed by the UE organization, I personally believe that the scope of "all men" with regards to databases has expanded dramatically since the early Yukon days. Even the three databases in the AW family are insufficient.

    I agree with you. I'm just fishing for some suggestions on what to accrete into the sample databases family (so I can blame others for the "failures" if they're not wild successes later -- Heh).

    Nobody voted "yes" on my April Fool's idea last year to port all of the Oracle sample databases to SQL Server 2008.

    :hehe:

  • noeld

    SSC Guru

    Points: 96590

    Nobody voted "yes" on my April Fool's idea last year to port all of the Oracle sample databases to SQL Server 2008.

    I like it!


    * Noel

  • David Reed-223505

    SSCrazy

    Points: 2456

    noeld (3/11/2009)


    Nobody voted "yes" on my April Fool's idea last year to port all of the Oracle sample databases to SQL Server 2008.

    I like it!

    It was funny... until Sybase (partially) ported AdventureWorks2008 to SQL Anywhere. Heh. Nah, it's still funny. But I'm already spending > 20% of my work-life with lawyers, and I'm not sure they'll be amused.

    Which reminds me... I sent the Sybase guy a t-shirt and some other swag (even though he still thinks I'm a rude/ugly American with the manners of a goat -- what was the original quote from The Highlander?), but I totally forgot to post my challenge to Sybase. Have to do that tomorrow.

    😎

  • Steve Jones - SSC Editor

    SSC Guru

    Points: 719898

    David Reed (3/11/2009)


    even though he still thinks I'm a rude/ugly American with the manners of a goat

    😎

    Now that's interesting. I'd go with the Ugly American, us matching each other, but the manners of a goat?

  • David Reed-223505

    SSCrazy

    Points: 2456

    Steve Jones - Editor (3/11/2009)


    David Reed (3/11/2009)


    even though he still thinks I'm a rude/ugly American with the manners of a goat

    😎

    Now that's interesting. I'd go with the Ugly American, us matching each other, but the manners of a goat?

    Not his words, exactly. No self-respecting Canuck would stoop to such offensive language. I've been listening to the Robert Burns podcast from the BBC on my Zune, which probably started me channeling Sean Connery from The Highlander... Hear the sound clip or read the quote. Heh.

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