June 1, 2011 at 4:22 pm
Hi everyone. Newbie to this forum.
I've been writing a reasonably large database in MsAccess which I now wish to rewrite for the cloud.
I figure I need to learn alot and will probably sub a great deal of development out but to begin with, i need to rework the data diagrams, plan the database and start working up some ideas.
All I really know at present is Ms Access and VBA. I'm thinking of eventually writing the app in Azure and linking into Quickbooks which appears to have a good set-up for Azure.
What does everyone think of this platform and how should I proceed with up-skilling to a basic level in this area (languges to learn, online courses to do etc..?)
Thanks very much for any advice you can give.
Larry
June 1, 2011 at 5:59 pm
Welcome to the forums.
Uh. Access and VBA is a looooong way from Azure.
Your migration path totally depends on how much you want to rewrite and what technologies you want to use (web vs. windows app).
If you intend to do your front-end rewrite in a 'vb' language, I would recommend VB.NET for you (download VB.NET Express for free from Microsoft). Also, need to learn SQL Server Reporting Services (SSRS) to replace those Access Reports. If you want this to be a web app, then You'll also need to learn (in addition to VB.NET) javascript, HTML, ASP.NET (sessions, etc.), ADO.NET (DataSet's, etc.), TSQL (stored procedures), and some database design. That's a pretty good start. If you have questions about these topics, please post more in a development centric forum on this site, or look at asp.net or other sites related to .NET development. All of this is off topic for this SQL Server 2008/SQL Server Newbies forum.
Azure is broken into 2 parts: SQL Azure and Windows Azure. SQL Azure is a database 'in the cloud' (whatever that means). Whereas Windows Azure is your web application 'in the cloud'. Questions on Azure (Windows Azure) should be directed to another forum dealing with web hosting, azure and the like. Questions about SQL Azure should be posted in the SQL Azure forum on this site here: http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Forum2571-1.aspx
As for general 'how do I' for database design or related topics like that, wow. Google, book store, college. However best you learn. Database Design and Normalization will help you get your table design in order. You'll need another book/course on database 'development' (writing T-SQL, stored procedures, etc.).
If I were you, I'd spend some time reading about Azure and figuring out if you really need/want that, and understand/accept the limitations, or are you wanting to spend all of this time and money for a buzzword.
Jim Murphy
http://www.sqlwatchmen.com
@SQLMurph
June 2, 2011 at 5:52 am
Welcome to the wonderful world of RDBMS Harry.
First thing first, even when there is just one underlying relational theory implementations are different therefore you cannot expect to be fluent in Azure - or any other version of SQL Server - just because you have developed a database in MS-Access.
MS-Access is a pretty interesting creature but it is not and never was meant to be a heavy weight RDBMS.
In regards to your concern about cloud I would say you should be more concerned about RDBMS. A proper cloud enviroment is nothing but a platform where you deploy your application. The intrincancies of the Clloud are the concern of your Cloud provider, not yours. If you are forced to be concerned about it, change Cloud provider.
Going back to the RDBMS, I would start by checking BOL - short for Books On Line.
Hope this helps.
_____________________________________
Pablo (Paul) Berzukov
Author of Understanding Database Administration available at Amazon and other bookstores.
Disclaimer: Advice is provided to the best of my knowledge but no implicit or explicit warranties are provided. Since the advisor explicitly encourages testing any and all suggestions on a test non-production environment advisor should not held liable or responsible for any actions taken based on the given advice.June 2, 2011 at 2:35 pm
Hi Jim
I'm happy to rewrite the entire database. I'm not under any illusion that what I have already written is any more than a rough sketch of what the production database will be.
Re languages, I'm happy to use whatever is most professional and future proof. I believe that a web app will be the most suitable for future growth. I'm pretty happy with design theory and normalisation but have no experience of how to implement this beyond Access and VBA. i have no loyalty to VB so I would prefer to learn something more progressive and flexible. Again, any suggestions would be welcome.
I understand that Azure is a well managed way of creating easily distributable applications and this is why I was looking at this option. I've read about a few successful pieces of software using this and with sql server offering much better visual design tools over something like mysql and php it seeme like a good marriage. I know I will never make a fully informed decision at this stage but the more sould advice I can get now will hopefully mean that I do not need to take an unnecessary chenge of direction in the future.
I have no idea how Azure is seen within the industry and if there is a better option then maybe I should consider it. My application will be for complete business and project management in the construction industry and will link into an accounts package such as quickbooks.
Thanks very much for all your advice.
Larry
Jim Murphy (6/1/2011)
Welcome to the forums.Uh. Access and VBA is a looooong way from Azure.
Your migration path totally depends on how much you want to rewrite and what technologies you want to use (web vs. windows app).
If you intend to do your front-end rewrite in a 'vb' language, I would recommend VB.NET for you (download VB.NET Express for free from Microsoft). Also, need to learn SQL Server Reporting Services (SSRS) to replace those Access Reports. If you want this to be a web app, then You'll also need to learn (in addition to VB.NET) javascript, HTML, ASP.NET (sessions, etc.), ADO.NET (DataSet's, etc.), TSQL (stored procedures), and some database design. That's a pretty good start. If you have questions about these topics, please post more in a development centric forum on this site, or look at asp.net or other sites related to .NET development. All of this is off topic for this SQL Server 2008/SQL Server Newbies forum.
Azure is broken into 2 parts: SQL Azure and Windows Azure. SQL Azure is a database 'in the cloud' (whatever that means). Whereas Windows Azure is your web application 'in the cloud'. Questions on Azure (Windows Azure) should be directed to another forum dealing with web hosting, azure and the like. Questions about SQL Azure should be posted in the SQL Azure forum on this site here: http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Forum2571-1.aspx
As for general 'how do I' for database design or related topics like that, wow. Google, book store, college. However best you learn. Database Design and Normalization will help you get your table design in order. You'll need another book/course on database 'development' (writing T-SQL, stored procedures, etc.).
If I were you, I'd spend some time reading about Azure and figuring out if you really need/want that, and understand/accept the limitations, or are you wanting to spend all of this time and money for a buzzword.
June 2, 2011 at 2:43 pm
Hi Paul
Thanks for your reply.
I know I have a long way to go but learning new stuff is rather fun and better than watching TV of an evening!
What would you suggest would be my best course of learning to take me from where i am now to producing a great cloud application.
Cheers,
larry
PaulB-TheOneAndOnly (6/2/2011)
Welcome to the wonderful world of RDBMS Harry.First thing first, even when there is just one underlying relational theory implementations are different therefore you cannot expect to be fluent in Azure - or any other version of SQL Server - just because you have developed a database in MS-Access.
MS-Access is a pretty interesting creature but it is not and never was meant to be a heavy weight RDBMS.
In regards to your concern about cloud I would say you should be more concerned about RDBMS. A proper cloud enviroment is nothing but a platform where you deploy your application. The intrincancies of the Clloud are the concern of your Cloud provider, not yours. If you are forced to be concerned about it, change Cloud provider.
Going back to the RDBMS, I would start by checking BOL - short for Books On Line.
Hope this helps.
June 2, 2011 at 2:47 pm
Larry,
No problem. I'm glad you see that it is not a trivial thing to make the jump from Access/VBA.
Almost all of your questions are not SQL Server 2008 related. Almost all of your questions revolved around front-end or middle-tier programming languages. But this is a SQL Server forum. Please post your various questions to the appropriate forums (http://www.asp.net). One reason that the sqlservercentral forums are so useful is because the posts are well organized and the answers are sound. This means that topics irrelevant to SQL Server should be directed elsewhere (and removed from here).
Now, when you really get into SQL Server questions, this is the spot to post! Course, for SQL Azure, post in one of the SQL Azure sqlservercentral forums here: http://www.sqlservercentral.com/Forums/Group2570.aspx
Thanks,
Jim
Jim Murphy
http://www.sqlwatchmen.com
@SQLMurph
June 2, 2011 at 2:48 pm
The first thing I'd do is get a copy of SQL Server Express Edition, and walk through converting the database to SQL Server. Azure is similar enough that it will get you started on the path in that direction.
There's an upgrade wizard in Access (or there used to be when I was using Access), that will walk you through most/all of an upgrade to SQL Server.
Then, get the Express Edition version of C#.NET (it's pronounced "C-sharp", if that comes up).
You'll be able to start playing with the conversion to a web interface on a SQL back end with that. That way, you'll end up with specific questions as you work your way through it.
It's an ambitious project, even if it's a simple database. Start with the baby steps I've outlined here, and you'll be walking in no time. There's a TON of support for all of these products, if you find the right venues. This site is the right venue for SQL Server, and for some .NET. http://www.simple-talk.com is another good venue for help, more aimed at .NET than SQL Server. There are others. Google/Bing will be your best friend while you work your way through this.
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June 3, 2011 at 6:19 am
laurence 53118 (6/2/2011)
Hi PaulThanks for your reply.
I know I have a long way to go but learning new stuff is rather fun and better than watching TV of an evening!
What would you suggest would be my best course of learning to take me from where i am now to producing a great cloud application.
Cheers,
larry
That's the right attitude Larry.
Building a successfulll cloud based application requires several, different sets of skills.
The basic building blocks are:
1- Infrastructure - processing power and storage, your Cloud provider should take care of this.
2- Transport - networking including load balancers and firewalls, your Cloud provider should take care of this.
3- Backend - Your database system, this requires design and implementation all the way from ER model to physical implementation.
4- Frontend - Your actual application e.g. Forms and Reporting.
5- Business continuity - in a shell, your backup/recovery strategy including what to do in case of a "disaster".
To tackle the database system I would suggest...
a) if you have the time, put a copy of C.J.Date "Introduction to Databases" by your bed and check (this is mandatory) E.F.Codd's twelve rules. This is going to give you a general understanding of the relational theory.
b) install SQL Server on your laptop or home computer, check Books On Line (installed alongside SQL Server). Focus on architecture. This is going to give you a general understanding of how SQL Server implements the relational theory.
c) search the net for Third Normal Form a.k.a. 3NF, read about data modeling focusing on ER modeling. This is going to give you a general understanding of how data should be modeled - particularly on a OLTP system.
d) Read... Practice... Read... Practice... Read... Practice... /// ...
Hope this helps.
_____________________________________
Pablo (Paul) Berzukov
Author of Understanding Database Administration available at Amazon and other bookstores.
Disclaimer: Advice is provided to the best of my knowledge but no implicit or explicit warranties are provided. Since the advisor explicitly encourages testing any and all suggestions on a test non-production environment advisor should not held liable or responsible for any actions taken based on the given advice.June 3, 2011 at 10:10 am
Thanks Paul and thanks again to everyone. Seems like I've come across a really helpful bunch on this forum.
Enjoy the weekend...
Larry
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