March 27, 2009 at 10:48 am
I like the concept, in fact I built something similar to SQO from devexpress.
How can you create a dataphore script, make it a lang to script using t-sql... Maybe using the clr?
I like the dataphore concept, as long as it translates to sql lang. But have yet to see it in action.
March 27, 2009 at 11:04 am
I guess my first question would be - what DataPhor features can you not find elsewhere? The fact that ylou want this to run on top of a SQL Server back-end makes it sounds like you'd be comfortable with any number of the "intermediate" tools which take largely procedural code and translates/interprets/rewrites those instructions into "native" SQL. Things like LinQ to SQL or Hibernate or Enterprise Framework.
So - what can you NOT do so far with a combination of SQL server and one or mor than one of the above solutions? LinQ, although not entirely mature, certainly does allow you to embed data calls in a much more procedural-feeling piece of code.
Putting some further focus on your question will help to. Open-ended as it is - it's a tough question to answer.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
March 27, 2009 at 11:17 am
I pinged Steve with this. He will likely respond to you.
March 27, 2009 at 11:46 am
Matt, I haven't made myself clear.
I use linq to sql, it's great!
What's better is linq and the entity relationships. ETLM I user that also.
What I am looking for specifically is scripting (NOT Programs that run under c#) Linq to sql is c# or vb.net stuff.
I like the SSIS stuff, but most of the ssis stuff I do is to run scripts in a particular order for particular purposes.
It would be nice to use these tools in SSIS, maybe even make an ssis tool that does some of this stuff.
March 27, 2009 at 11:50 am
I want the best of all worlds.
I want ssis to be able to run dataphore scripts.
I want to be able to do what I want in a script.
That's really all I want. It doesn't exist YET.
March 28, 2009 at 3:33 pm
There are 2 types of knowledge.
You may know everything about nothing or nothing about everything.
Universal tools are good, but there is a tiny problem: they don't really work for any of applications.
_____________
Code for TallyGenerator
March 29, 2009 at 12:45 pm
Matt Miller (3/27/2009)
I guess my first question would be - what DataPhor features can you not find elsewhere? The fact that ylou want this to run on top of a SQL Server back-end makes it sounds like you'd be comfortable with any number of the "intermediate" tools which take largely procedural code and translates/interprets/rewrites those instructions into "native" SQL. Things like LinQ to SQL or Hibernate or Enterprise Framework.So - what can you NOT do so far with a combination of SQL server and one or mor than one of the above solutions? LinQ, although not entirely mature, certainly does allow you to embed data calls in a much more procedural-feeling piece of code.
Putting some further focus on your question will help to. Open-ended as it is - it's a tough question to answer.
I assume your an sql expert so let me ask you a question, what would it take to entice you to try something like dataphor? If you're thinking in terms of 'features' what specifically are you looking for that you can't find in sql server? If you can go beyond specific feature(s) what 'something' would attract your attention? I'm not trying to splurk you. I'm trying to get some experts amped about a new approach to writing queries and solving problems without funkdafying sql 🙂 Consider this a challenge. Put up what's on your mind. And if you're not looking for anything that sql doesn't offer that gravy noodles 🙂
best,
steve
March 29, 2009 at 1:03 pm
Sergiy (3/28/2009)
There are 2 types of knowledge.You may know everything about nothing or nothing about everything.
Universal tools are good, but there is a tiny problem: they don't really work for any of applications.
You're in the hall of fame, which one got you there?:-)
Would you consider the present fuster cluck of technologies the best IT can do? :w00t:
best,
steve
March 30, 2009 at 8:01 am
steve dassin (3/29/2009)
Matt Miller (3/27/2009)
I guess my first question would be - what DataPhor features can you not find elsewhere? The fact that ylou want this to run on top of a SQL Server back-end makes it sounds like you'd be comfortable with any number of the "intermediate" tools which take largely procedural code and translates/interprets/rewrites those instructions into "native" SQL. Things like LinQ to SQL or Hibernate or Enterprise Framework.So - what can you NOT do so far with a combination of SQL server and one or mor than one of the above solutions? LinQ, although not entirely mature, certainly does allow you to embed data calls in a much more procedural-feeling piece of code.
Putting some further focus on your question will help to. Open-ended as it is - it's a tough question to answer.
I assume your an sql expert so let me ask you a question, what would it take to entice you to try something like dataphor? If you're thinking in terms of 'features' what specifically are you looking for that you can't find in sql server? If you can go beyond specific feature(s) what 'something' would attract your attention? I'm not trying to splurk you. I'm trying to get some experts amped about a new approach to writing queries and solving problems without funkdafying sql 🙂 Consider this a challenge. Put up what's on your mind. And if you're not looking for anything that sql doesn't offer that gravy noodles 🙂
best,
steve
Don't confuse the fact that I post here a lot with the fact that this is the only thing I deal with... I have always used a variety of tools around data, and will continue to do so. Most of my career has been spent moving manipul;ating and serving data using whatever means necessary to accomplish the task, so when the solution wasn't available OOB, I just went and made my own at times.
The question though was how to give SQL Server more dataphor features, and not how to lure folks away from using SQL Server. Fox's question was confusing to me, since Dataphor and the other related products (rel, D4, etc....) were built by folks who thought the traditional RDBMS'es were flawed beyond repair and should be gutted, and should be replaced by something which essentially only deals with data in 6NF, as per some of the dictates of the 3rd Manifesto.
So - I was simply trying to reconcile his request, since we wants to use the "flawed engine" with the "improved language". Interesting though that the primary argument from the data practiioners to the data academics that keep pushing the 3rd Manifesto is that while their model is nice and fun, it just won't hold up performance or growth-wise against anything production standards. In other words - the theory will never withstand the perf constraints required to function in the "real" world. So - it was interesting to hear someone hope for the "improved" expressiveness using the perf of the stodgy old SQL engine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
March 30, 2009 at 2:23 pm
steve dassin (3/29/2009)
You're in the hall of fame, which one got you there?:-)
Neither. 😉
Would you consider the present fuster cluck of technologies the best IT can do? :w00t:
Apparently, yes.
While 90% of programmers (I mean those people who do write some code) cannot build a simple algorithm...
_____________
Code for TallyGenerator
March 30, 2009 at 3:18 pm
It seems to me, most of the algorithms are built, and if you build a new one it usually ends up somewhere on the net.
March 30, 2009 at 5:36 pm
Yeah, I know.
All algorithms are built, all math tasks are solved, all music is writen, all paints are painted.
Universal excuse for mediocre for all times.
_____________
Code for TallyGenerator
March 31, 2009 at 10:21 pm
Many people have accused dataphor of being, vis a vie sql server, a WMD, a weapon of mass desecration. Not so, the two can coexist amicably for shizzle.
foxjazz (3/27/2009)
I like the concept, in fact I built something similar to SQO from devexpress.
Thanks for your interest in dataphor. If you think t-sql is an amusement park you'll find dataphor a rosetta stone of application development 🙂
How can you create a dataphore script, make it a lang to script using t-sql... Maybe using the clr?
Well you can hook into sql/t-sql anytime or anywhere you want via pass-thru queries written entirely in t-sql. You can execute any statements t-sql supports. You can execute stored procedures on sql server as well and work with the result(s). If the result is a table in sql it will be realized in dataphor as a table variable. And once you get the idea of what it means to use a table as a variable you'll start to really unlock the power and expressiveness of dataphor.
I like the dataphore concept, as long as it translates to sql lang. But have yet to see it in action.
For the sake of argument consider a query written in the language of dataphor, D4. The dataphor server will translate those parts of it that it can into t-sql and sql server will execute those parts. If there's things that sql server can't do (there's no sql translation for it) the dataphor server will handle those things itself.
I want the best of all worlds. I want ssis to be able to run dataphore scripts. I want to be able to do what I want in a script.
You can easily make D4 scripts and run them anytime. I don't know, off hand, how to make SSIS run a D4 script. Many of the things you'd use SSIS for could easily be done in dataphor 🙂
The idea of integration is a big topic. You can hook into sql server as well as C#. Here's a quick example of using D4 with t-sql.
// Define a D4 table variable where 'part' of the expression is a t-sql query.
// We want to create a 'list' type of products for each order.
var T1:=Orders join
( //This part of the query is derived from t-sql pass-thru query.
(SQLQuery("SELECT OrderID,ProductID,Quantity,
DENSE_RANK() OVER(ORDER BY OrderID) AS DRankOrderID,
ROW_NUMBER() OVER(PARTITION BY OrderID ORDER BY
ProductID) AS RankProd
FROM [Order Details]")
//Now we're resuming the query with dataphors language (D4).
where DRankOrderID<=2
redefine {ProductID:=ToString(ProductID)} add{',' Delimit})
adorn{key{RankProd}}
group by {OrderID} add{Concat(ProductID,Delimit order by {RankProd}) ProdStr}
{OrderID,Split(ProdStr) LList} //Products for each OrderID are now stored as a 'list' type.
)
{OrderID,CustomerID,LList};
// This is the table definition of variable T1.
select T1 is table{OrderID:Integer,LList:list(String),CustomerID:String};//Returns true.
// We can now process the list of products using list operators in a query.
select T1 {OrderID,CustomerID,LList.Concat(',') Prodstr};//Prove it:)
/*
OrderID CustomerID Prodstr
------- ---------- --------
10248 VINET 11,42,72
10249 TOMSP 14,51
*/
Post back with any questions or comments.
best,
steve
March 31, 2009 at 11:04 pm
Sergiy (3/30/2009)
Yeah, I know.All algorithms are built, all math tasks are solved, all music is writen, all paints are painted.
Universal excuse for mediocre for all times.
"...all Gods dead, all wars fought, all faiths in man shaken..."
This Side of Paradise, F. Scott Fitzgerald
April 1, 2009 at 7:25 pm
Sergiy (3/30/2009)
Yeah, I know.All algorithms are built, all math tasks are solved, all music is writen, all paints are painted.
Universal excuse for mediocre for all times.
Well you seem to have a sense of what I'm up against! 🙂 I sure as hell could use a little help from some bright people who cynicism has totally blinded them to entertaining new ideas.
best,
steve
Viewing 15 posts - 1 through 15 (of 46 total)
You must be logged in to reply to this topic. Login to reply