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Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 7:09 AM
SSC-Enthusiastic

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Last Login: Friday, October 31, 2014 5:16 AM
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Interesting thread and kudos for posting the reference to Brian's and Phil's blogs. Phil's points on the reality of editorial freedom is right on point - I have experienced this first hand as a vendor/advertiser and have had it work both for and against me.

The level of your independence is yet to be determined - regardless of the reality, the perception of the community - will be the reality, and that will vary by individual and as time and circumstance dictate. As long as I derive value (and sometimes entertainment) from this resource, I will be a regular visitor.

One area that you may consider (that I have not found elsewhere) is a compendium of available products from any source along with any reviews (direct and linked) that might be available. Any vendor could post product information within reasonable guidelines and anyone could link reviews and write feedback on them. Ideally the products are categorized and searchable within this area - something 'Wiki-like' that allows the vendors the maintain the basic product info and others to submit user experience, questions, feedback, etc. If something like this already exists, I would appreciate a link to it.

Currently, I do the usual Google search of certain keywords, check a few known sites to find products that have features I need then begin looking for independent reviews. If the vendor has an online support forum that is always one of my first stops. Still, finding and evaluating products is very time consuming - anything that can serve as repository would be a valuable resource to the community.

Best wishes for the holidays and continued success with this site.




Post #325336
Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 7:09 AM
SSC-Enthusiastic

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I don't really care about adverts - I usually just ignore them and focus on the content.

What I do care about is the articles people post, and whether this will be censored. For example, I found a nice tool from Quest on which I have been planning to write a review article. Will I be allowed to publish this article?

If it is published (assuming of course it is of a high enough standard), and receives the same publicity it would in the past, then I am satisfied Red-Gate has allowed editorial freedom.

Until then, I will keep my options open and give the team the benefit of the doubt. Don't cry wolf...




When in doubt - test, test, test!

Wayne

Post #325337
Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 7:49 AM


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I agree with your comments Karma, just as buying a car, the responsibility is your own.

Without getting philosophical though, a lot of our reality is constructed for us and even if one has the confidence to decide that something is not as it should be; what is that founded on and what can be done to change it?

Advertising (and in this case the potential for the corrosion of impartiality) aims to skewer our perspective on things. Not all re advertising is bad, of course. I have no animosity to those in advertising; they're only trying to succeed in their industry. Before one makes clear the responsibility of a consumer though one should make clear the responsibility of the supplier, in an ideal world that is.

RG have put in a half-harted effort to assure us of their intentions but they have no responsibility to make clear all of them and in particular enter into a contract with us as to what exactly they intend to do with our contact details and contributions (intellectual property we submitted under the auspices of SSC).

In these and other respects a lot of people feel disappointed in SSC - it's not just about independence and impartiality. RG have bought SSC (and not as minority investor) and they will do with it as they please.

Still I wish to use the site and hope none of my somewhat-paranoid-delusions materialise.



Max
Post #325346
Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 8:52 AM


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Thanks for the comments and I definitely have some things to think about.

I'd like to see more reviews, but they're tough to do. The only way I can be sure they're not being "gamed" by the vendor (paying an author to say something, writing themselves as a psuedonym, etc.) is to do them myself.

However then I get into the place where I'm not sure I'm completely qualified to review all products. I don't have a heavily stressed environment, for example, so for my purposes, all the backup products would probably test well. However in a 4TB environment, they might not. Or I might not like the way a particular product does a job and it would show in my review, but then I might not be using it well and unnecessarily "trash" the product.

I've given reviews a lot of thought over the years and that's one reason I don't write them. Right or wrong (probably wrong), people seemt to give my words more weight than they deserve. I don't want to negatively impact sales for someone with an ill-written word.

Some of the other comments are great and I'll see about taking some of these into account. I do think advertising plays a good part in the community, if nothing else if gives you awareness. I'm still working on a plan to suggest to Red Gate for next year on this.







Follow me on Twitter: @way0utwest

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Post #325366
Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 9:17 AM
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Last Login: Thursday, October 4, 2007 10:09 AM
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Steve,

First - I appreciate the openness (and the link!).  Steve and I have gone a few rounds in the past 5 years but in the last 6 mos. SSC and ApexSQL (Steve, Kevin and myself) really seemed to be in a good groove and 2007 was looking to be a good year of collaboration.  I haven't always agreed with Steve but we managed to hash things out and I felt he was at least advocating for his site - not another vendor.  Our biggest incident was my complaining about Red-Gate several years ago on reviews.  We got thru it although it left an indelible impression on me as to the influence Red-Gate was trying to wield on the site.  To SSC's credit they managed to stiff arm Red-Gate on the majority of these attempts - most notable was the offer to pay the site to displace competive ads.  This was courageous since I know SSC wasn't rolling in green at the time and could have used the windfall - it would have been real easy to take this deal and outside of SSC, Red-Gate, myself and a few other vendors no one would have known.  Not sure who was involved in the decision, what the vote was etc - but the end result was that they erred on the side of ethics.  Those are actions, not words - and they mean a lot.

As a side note - my biggest thrill on this site was the occaisonal time when Steve stuck it to Microsoft (i.e. why upgrade to SQL 2005?).  I think I sent him congratulatory emails each time!   So Steve has an estabilished pedigree of independence.

But now - it's a different world.  I'm going to try and keep Steve out of my gunsights as he's not the protagonist here.  And I hope he doesn't get caught up in the cross fire.  My advice bro - the same as they told me in the Army "keep your head down until the Boom Boom stops".

Having said that, I wanted to comment on some things Steve said

As to your comment "As it turned out, everyone was great and willing to give Red Gate the benefit of the doubt that they had no ulterior motive. " I'm not sure about your study group but Sean McCown says almost exactly the opposite from his stint at PASS

"Red-Gate says they intend to keep it as a community site and grow it as much as they can. However, they also plan to use the membership list. I didn't ask for what purpose, because why would I? We all know they're talking about marketing. And I suppose that's their right because they bought the site, but I know they're going to lose a lot of users over it. People don't want to be cold called by anyone. Without exception, everyone I talked to said that they're worried about how things will change with a vendor in charge. "

Feedback to me is running very strongly against - so I guess it might be who you hang with or what people want to tell you directly.  I would say skeptism is growing - now that we know Red-Gate plans to continue to run their newsletter ads (despite removing competitors) and also plans to review their own and competitor tools.  I would re-survey these people and ask them again what they think with this addition news/context.  It seems the honeymoon is ending for a lot of people.

As for this comment

"We are planning to pull advertising, at least most of the ones on the site and most of the ones in the newsletter. I'm not sure if that's a good idea because I think it's important for you to be able to find and learn about third party tools and it's important for vendors to be able to inform you of their new products."

Well, what Red-Gate has indicated is that the most of ads they plan to pull are competitor ads.  And the most of the ads they plan to keep are their own!  Funny how it worked out that way.  

Tony Davis on Simple-Talk

"Buying SSC was a business decision and Red Gate is looking to make a return on that investment. It's true that, in the SSC newsletter, you will no longer see competitor advertising but will continue to see Red Gate tools. How big of a downside that is will be for the community to decide."

Ahhh - pretty big I would imagine unless of course you are Red-Gate.  Even Steve here is publicly expressing his concern that it might not be a good idea.  Add his voice to the growing chorus of public and private murmoring about this and I think we're seeing some movement of perspectives on this issue.

anyway - I was gonna give up on this a couple days ago (as I have a real job, kids etc!) but I started getting a lot of calls and emails of support telling me to keep fighting and thanking me for lending a voice to the "resistance".  If I'm going to live in North Carolina I guess I gotta have Tar on my Heels.  So until I'm totally satisfied (and we're getting farther away from this than closer with recent Red-Gate announcements) I'm going to continue to pound away on this issue.  If you feel strongly about independent media as I do - help spread the word. 




Brian Lockwood
President
ApexSQL - SQL Developer Essentials

http://www.apexsql.com/blog

Stand up for an Independent SQL Community - be Informed
Post #325373
Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 12:54 PM
SSCrazy

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I am just a SQL Server developer.  I have no power to choose products for my company so even I go to SQL Server Central everyday, I totally ignore the advertisements (sorry, Apexsql, Red Gate...).  I think the majority of the community is in the same boat.   I use this website to post questions and I read the article for improving my SQL server knowledge.  I sometimes answer the question of the day.  Lately I started writing articles. 

Some of the articles or discussion people complained about microsoft products or some other products.   One of the thread in this forum sometime ago was 'Tools you need', people posted different tools they used. 

Steve, I wonder once RedGate in control, could you still write some thread liked that when people praised other tools they used liked DBGhost, SQLDelta.  Also what if someone writes an article and complains about Red Gate products, will you post it?  I remembered in one of my article or one of my my post, I said Ab Initio was just an expensive toy.

Do we still have the freedome to express our opinion?

Can we post any questions or answer any post without anyone censor it?  One time my former DBA David Benoit posted a DBA job and I wrote a post to say how bad the department and the company was.  He called you to delete my post but you refused.  I was happy about that because in some other website, my post would be deleted.  Would this still be the same in the future?

My 2 cents.

Post #325402
Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 3:07 PM


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I used to think the same thing, but learned that this isn't always the case. Sometimes, if we look at a tool and we like it, we can tell our management about it. If you press the case hard enough and show where the tool can be (or is) useful, you'd be surprised at how much of an impact you can make, especially if you introduce a tool to others and they start using it.

And that's partially the point of folks who are advertising on SQL Server Central. If you see the name of the tool, it'll stick with you, even if it is subconcious. But if you don't see the name at all, then they have little chance to make an impact, because companies don't tend to do elaborate source selections for a programming tool.

Case in point... one of the developers saw the PromptSQL review I did (this was before it was bought by Red Gate and renamed SQLPrompt). He shared it with the other developers where he worked and they ended up all grabbing some copies of it. He was a new employee at the company where he worked (I don't work with him) but it didn't take his management very long to agree with him. We saw the same thing where I work with DBGhost. A DBA, who has moved on to a new city and bigger and better things, introduced DBGhost in and it's a tool our DBAs now use. He first saw it as an ad on SSC.

 



K. Brian Kelley, CISA, MCSE, Security+, MVP - SQL Server
Regular Columnist (Security), SQLServerCentral.com
Author of Introduction to SQL Server: Basic Skills for Any SQL Server User
| Professional Development blog | Technical Blog | LinkedIn | Twitter
Post #325409
Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 4:07 PM
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Steve,

Just keep up the fine work you've been doing so far. It's up to RedGate to prove that this site will remain independent. One thing I have noticed is that now that RedGate owns this site, there isn't anything on the site saying so (besides a couple of threads). The logo should be changed to reflect RedGate's ownership. Why? Because right now it makes them look more sneaky and trying to hide their ownership. People coming to this site have a right to know that it is owned by RedGate and not by the original SQLServerCentral group.

-SQLBill



Post #325414
Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 5:31 PM


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Thanks and you'll still be able to express opinions. I think having a vendor section in the forums is a good idea and I'll work on getting something setup for discussions.

As far as changing the site to reflect Red Gate's ownership. I've changed some of the copyrights on the ASP side, but the source code is under control (code behinds, etc), and in a confused state. We didn't have the best system and I'm working to get a developer at Red Gate up to speed so we can get a few bugs fixed.

Not sure about the logo, I'd hate to see that changed, but I'll try to get some text up on the "About Us" section that reflects the change as well.

Just to be clear, as far as I know, advertising, meaning all advertising include Red Gate's, will be removed Dec 31, or maybe Jan 2 or 3, depending on how I feel . There won't just be Red Gate ads here. Same for the newsletter, though I'm not sure how I'll rework that.

Also I handle ALL advertising, including which ads run. I get them from the vendors and then load them. I have not changed ANY ads as a result of this sale. Not pulled any, not applied any "standards" or anything other type of censorship.








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Post #325429
Posted Friday, November 24, 2006 6:35 PM
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I would just congratulate the guys who have created and maintained this site, for finally being justly rewarded for their amazing efforts.

As to all the bleating about Red Gate ruining the site by turning it into an advertising forum for themselves, that would have to be a fairly stupid and shortsighted move. This site has survived because it successfully and admirably fulfilled an enormous need in the SQL community. As soon as it stops fulfilling that need I, like many others, will cancel my subscription "Voting with my feet".

So I would suggest to all those screeching indignantly - get on with your life, the deal has been done. If you don't like what Red Gate does then take a leaf out of Steve's book and at the same time stick it to Red gate by Building your own successful SQL site!!

SQLcentralServer.com rules
Post #325431
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