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Posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 11:11 AM
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Comments posted to this topic are about the item The Real SQL Server Experts
Post #722599
Posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 12:27 PM


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Despite their undoubted depth of their knowledge and frightening intelligence, those in charge of the T-SQL language at Microsoft often lack recent frontline experience. In this respect, they are less well-qualified to dictate the direction that T-SQL takes...


I simply could not have said it better except that things like the SSMS GUI also fall into that category. The folks on the ANSI board need to listen up, as well.

And who was it that decided on the new Office 2007 menues? What a mess. They claim that it was all due to customer feedback... nothing like a design by a really big committee to really muck up the works.


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

"Change is inevitable. Change for the better is not." -- 04 August 2013
(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

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Post #722608
Posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 6:51 PM


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Quite a few of the developers at Microsoft, but I'm not sure if it's a majority. The people building the language seem to be smart, and they are looking for ways to improve things, but as with anything built by committee, it might suffer from compromise.

The feedback cycle seems strange. MVPs constantly give feedback, but I'm not sure how in sync we are with developers. Seems like often they've already decided, or they give us ideas so wet that we don't know what feedback to give.

Office 2007, I think, is a mess for IT folks, but some of the less technical people I know like it. Simpler for them.







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Post #722653
Posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:30 PM
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At the risk of being seen as a troll, this is where open source software tends to shine (though not always...). Basically, when you have access to the codebase, then you can either contribute or - if that's not successful - fork the project.

This is a real challenge for closed source companies.


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Post #722669
Posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:34 PM


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Heh... Open Source... Yep, I've seen what happens there. Just look at what some people write CLR's for. Some of it is good. Most of it is terrible.

--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

"Change is inevitable. Change for the better is not." -- 04 August 2013
(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Post #722672
Posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 9:41 PM
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Well, bare in mind I'm talking about organized projects, not little snippets of code. Look at the Samba project - they're about to get to the point where you can replace a DC in a Windows domain. Then look at the Postgres project, they're doing amazing work also.

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Post #722674
Posted Saturday, May 23, 2009 10:01 PM


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ta.bu.shi.da.yu (5/23/2009)
Well, bare in mind I'm talking about organized projects, not little snippets of code. Look at the Samba project - they're about to get to the point where you can replace a DC in a Windows domain. Then look at the Postgres project, they're doing amazing work also.


Well, bare in mind that you made no such stipulation to begin with. I agree that well thought out projects can usually be a real benefit in open source environments. The problem is that many people add code that just shouldn't be called "code" even in such well organized projects.

Look at MySQL... I don't remember what the function is called but they have a function to create a numbered "table" on the fly. Last time I tested it (years ago now), it took a really, really long time just to generate a lousy million numbers. It was part of such an organized project and the code is terrible.

As with anything else, there are pros and cons to things like open sourced code.


--Jeff Moden
"RBAR is pronounced "ree-bar" and is a "Modenism" for "Row-By-Agonizing-Row".

First step towards the paradigm shift of writing Set Based code:
Stop thinking about what you want to do to a row... think, instead, of what you want to do to a column."

"Change is inevitable. Change for the better is not." -- 04 August 2013
(play on words) "Just because you CAN do something in T-SQL, doesn't mean you SHOULDN'T." --22 Aug 2013

Helpful Links:
How to post code problems
How to post performance problems
Post #722676
Posted Sunday, May 24, 2009 2:08 AM
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Jeff Moden (5/23/2009)
ta.bu.shi.da.yu (5/23/2009)
Well, bare in mind I'm talking about organized projects, not little snippets of code. Look at the Samba project - they're about to get to the point where you can replace a DC in a Windows domain. Then look at the Postgres project, they're doing amazing work also.


Well, bare in mind that you made no such stipulation to begin with.


A fair point - sorry about that.

I agree that well thought out projects can usually be a real benefit in open source environments. The problem is that many people add code that just shouldn't be called "code" even in such well organized projects.

Look at MySQL... I don't remember what the function is called but they have a function to create a numbered "table" on the fly. Last time I tested it (years ago now), it took a really, really long time just to generate a lousy million numbers. It was part of such an organized project and the code is terrible.


I'm not a huge fan of MySQL, ever since I read the following blog post by its founder. However, I think it probably does scale, given that Wikipedia use it for their backend database.

As with anything else, there are pros and cons to things like open sourced code.


Absolutely! I'm just saying that I think that open source projects are more influencable or are quicker to implement changes than closed source companies. My $0.02.


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Post #722688
Posted Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:13 AM


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I would agree that Open Source tools can respond quicker, and changes can be made. However it's a double edged sword, as Jeff pointed out. Often there are people that changes things they shouldn't.

And forks cause other issues with support and understanding. If you've forked the tool, if it breaks or when someone else expects it to work another way, it can cause other issues.

Open Source solves some problems, but creates others. Microsoft has to make decisions and we won't always like them. I would like to see more add-ons and additions to things like SSMS rather than having it closed off.







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Post #722734
Posted Sunday, May 24, 2009 10:16 AM
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The people best qualified to pass verdict on T-SQL, or any other tool, are the people for whose use it was designed. The right to debate and argue with developers at Microsoft about how they've built products is not the sole the preserve of academics, trainers, MVPs, and other assorted members of Microsoft's "inner circle".


Make sure you don't run afoul of the "Redmond does no wrong fun club" even if you make valid criticism.
I questioned the choice of PowerShell as the core scripting language coming from my decades of scripting and development experience on another redgate forum and was told basically to shut up and enjoy the ride.

So I'm struggling to jump through hoops writing in a Yet Another Syntax. (Already working in VB, VFP, C#, Python, JScript and TSQL, not to mention other tools on other platforms....)



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