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Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 8:24 AM
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chrisn-585491 (9/6/2013)
What you typed however is not the compelling argument that I was hoping for.


It's not my job to educate you.

Never said it was. (edit: Ok, I did say I hoped for some compelling arguments of which yours was not one. My mistake, lol right in the quote I was replying to, but technically I didn't specifically assign any particular task to you.)

I'm not going to do your homework.

You don't need to, I never assigned you that task either.

I'm not going to give you a "brain dump" of what numerous people have posted on blogs. But I will suggest you listen to this podcast to understand the value of the program and the various repercussions :
http://www.theucarchitects.com/podcasts/audio/podcast_027.mp3

Fair enough, although I've already posted some thoughts on the value of the program, and the other programs at different levels.

When the very best at their craft say there is an issue, I tend to listen to them and try to understand what's at stake.

I never said I didn't listen to them or read what they say. I also didn't call them a troll or in any manner ignorant of any topic they were discussing. Just sayin!
Post #1492273
Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 8:37 AM


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Post #1492278
Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 9:34 AM
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Fair enough, although I've already posted some thoughts on the value of the program, and the other programs at different levels.


I think right now we are arguing over history, which is dumb on my part. I assumed that you have the same knowledge and motivation as me.

To recap, the lower level certs were seen as a profit center by Microsoft, so there wasn't any effort put make any practical, non-game-able certs. This is probably why they dumped the higher level cert, money.

Ideally certs shouldn't be a pure profit center, they should came out of the Support and maybe the PR budget. Training material could and exams fees could recap some costs, but there's no way they could cover all of it and have the any faith in the exams and still be affordable.

The lower level certs had some use to many of us, if they would used to assist people in learning the material outside of the job they might not encounter. The problem is that they are multiple choice questions pools that can and will be "captured" due to their perceived value. And many thought they were more marketing than technical in some questions. So many of the people have "gamed" the lower cert system that some folks in the PASS community have said the 8 out of 10 people they interview with the lower certs couldn't pass three simple questions about basic SQL Server practices.

The master certs apparently were true measure of knowledge and ability. Considering that Microsoft sent many of it's own top folks to the courses, there was definite value in the system.

So with the loss of the only Microsoft certs that truly had value, there's a lot of questions being raised about the process and motivations of Microsoft Learning and Microsoft overall.

Post #1492304
Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 9:46 AM
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8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...

Post #1492309
Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 9:53 AM


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Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



8 of 10 is probably pretty accurate. I have client after client that just terminated their "sr" dba with mcitp/mcdba and the former (and in some cases current) employee had no clue how to do a log backup and less clue on the recovery models.




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Post #1492310
Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 9:54 AM


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Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...

Yes but the gamers are not just people from other industries who don't know anything about the product. I'm sure a large portion of the the 8 out of 10 are people who at least have a basic understanding of the product but want to substitute experience with a piece of paper. So they do a brain dump and assume they can learn what they need to on the job.

Just my assumptions...
Post #1492311
Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 9:58 AM


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Dave62 (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...

Yes but the gamers are not just people from other industries who don't know anything about the product. I'm sure a large portion of the the 8 out of 10 are people who at least have a basic understanding of the product but want to substitute experience with a piece of paper. So they do a brain dump and assume they can learn what they need to on the job.

Just my assumptions...


I think there's also plenty of people that work in technology, maybe even with SQL Server, but they've accumulated 10, 20, 100 repeats of 1 week of knowledge. They do their job, which might be making a backup, running a job, minor stuff, but haven't really understood the product. They havne't had to and take the test to try and get a better job using the Cert as a shortcut.

I was stunned a few years back at how many people that claim MCSE or other cert, but didn't know how @@identity and @@scope_identity differed. People that couldn't articulate what a clustered index is. To be fair, I didn't double check if they had the cert, and it's entirely possible there are people claiming it that don't have any cert.







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Post #1492314
Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 10:08 AM


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SQLRNNR (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



8 of 10 is probably pretty accurate. I have client after client that just terminated their "sr" dba with mcitp/mcdba and the former (and in some cases current) employee had no clue how to do a log backup and less clue on the recovery models.


That is really bad. Companies should do more in those cases to screen and test potential candidates. If they don't have the in-house knowledge to ask the right questions then they need to find someone who does. And I'm not talking about having a gang of programmers hammer at an applicant for a production DBA position. Keep the questions in scope.


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Post #1492318
Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 10:12 AM


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jfogel (9/6/2013)
SQLRNNR (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



8 of 10 is probably pretty accurate. I have client after client that just terminated their "sr" dba with mcitp/mcdba and the former (and in some cases current) employee had no clue how to do a log backup and less clue on the recovery models.


That is really bad. Companies should do more in those cases to screen and test potential candidates. If they don't have the in-house knowledge to ask the right questions then they need to find someone who does. And I'm not talking about having a gang of programmers hammer at an applicant for a production DBA position. Keep the questions in scope.


Agreed.

You'd be surprised at how many applicants with those certs (allegedly) are unable to even name 2 recovery models for a Sr DBA position. It's really sad.




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Post #1492321
Posted Friday, September 06, 2013 10:19 AM


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SQLRNNR (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



8 of 10 is probably pretty accurate. I have client after client that just terminated their "sr" dba with mcitp/mcdba and the former (and in some cases current) employee had no clue how to do a log backup and less clue on the recovery models.


I'd go just a wee bit further and say at least 8 of 10. Like, 8.5-8.9. Not quite 90%, but probably 85%.
Have you have seen my blog post on interview questions? A sr. DBA should be able to get at least 80% of those. So what does it say when you phone screen someone (using Grant's excellent questions from his blog), and they fail?

Like Jason mentioned, clients are getting rid of their incompetent DBAs.
Hmm... maybe I ought to start a side business offering DBA screening / interviewing. This would really help companies out.


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