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Posted Friday, September 6, 2013 10:23 AM


Old Hand

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As somebody else mentioned, it is crazy that people would seek a job they are completely unqualified for. My resume has never been a work of fiction and if I don't know something or have zero experience in a particular area I don't dance around it. Still, I know my limits and my strengths. I've done a few phone interviews where I've told the person(s) that I didn't think I was qualified for the position because at that time I didn't know enough about this or that. Fortunately this has been very rare and I've never been fired or demoted in my professional career. I'm proud of that and it certainly isn't due to good luck.

Cheers
Post #1492333
Posted Friday, September 6, 2013 10:28 AM


SSChampion

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Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).


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Post #1492337
Posted Friday, September 6, 2013 10:28 AM


Old Hand

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WayneS (9/6/2013)
SQLRNNR (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



8 of 10 is probably pretty accurate. I have client after client that just terminated their "sr" dba with mcitp/mcdba and the former (and in some cases current) employee had no clue how to do a log backup and less clue on the recovery models.


I'd go just a wee bit further and say at least 8 of 10. Like, 8.5-8.9. Not quite 90%, but probably 85%.
Have you have seen my blog post on interview questions? A sr. DBA should be able to get at least 80% of those. So what does it say when you phone screen someone (using Grant's excellent questions from his blog), and they fail?

Like Jason mentioned, clients are getting rid of their incompetent DBAs.
Hmm... maybe I ought to start a side business offering DBA screening / interviewing. This would really help companies out.


Sounds like there is a market and you would do very well. Assuming that the candidates didn't read the same interview questions the entire world has access to and bone up for the interview! Of course, if their answers sound as though they are a parrot then you would know something is up and they are basically reading from a script.


Cheers
Post #1492338
Posted Friday, September 6, 2013 10:39 AM
SSChasing Mays

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Ugh, I'm embarrased how long it took me to do fizzbuzz. Not hard, but my brain was still on the script I'm currently writing... That's my excuse and I'm sticking to it. I'm going to check out the questions later tonight to see how I do.
Post #1492339
Posted Friday, September 6, 2013 1:03 PM


Ten Centuries

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Grant Fritchey (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).


Agreed, I have basically said this on this forum for a very long time about the MS Certs and was called every nasty name in the book for doing so by alot of people on this very forum. Whatever, I can take it. Anyway, the truth be told in the end, it was true.. You can easily braindump most of these certs, rendering possessing them virtually worthless, and it puts the entire MS certification program into a suspect light as far as I'm concerned. What really surprises me about this whole recent behavior by Microsoft is that it even surprises people the way it has. This is typical for Mickeysoft IMHO. They fully realize that most people in the industry think these certs are suspect. However, they don't care what MOST PEOPLE THINK. They care about making money, bottom line, and this was obviously not a big enough moneymaker for them. So, they dropped it like a bad cold, and the heck with anyone who doesn't like it.. That should not surprise anyone.


"Technology is a weird thing. It brings you great gifts with one hand, and it stabs you in the back with the other. ..."
Post #1492382
Posted Friday, September 6, 2013 1:09 PM
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Grant Fritchey (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).


Whoa. That puts the saying "Those who can do, those who can't get certified" in a whole new light for me. I like asking mostly open-ended, relevant questions to try to get some insight into their problem solving skills and knowledge of the product. Much easier to smell the BS.
Post #1492388
Posted Friday, September 6, 2013 2:25 PM


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Grant Fritchey (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).


I fondly remember a colleague coming to me one day at the bank (it was about a week after I'd handed in my resignation). He waved a certification result paper in my face and announced loudly 'See, I know SQL better than you do.'

Problem was, one night the previous week I'd been working late and, while hunting for a pile of release documents on his desk, I'd found instead a large pile of braindumps for that very exam.....



Gail Shaw
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SQL In The Wild: Discussions on DB performance with occasional diversions into recoverability

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Post #1492419
Posted Friday, September 6, 2013 2:40 PM


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GilaMonster (9/6/2013)
Grant Fritchey (9/6/2013)
Steven.Howes (9/6/2013)
8 out of 10? really? That's insane. I can't believe that many people would try to cheat and screw their employers by taking a job that they can't do. I couldn't imagine taking a job as a welder or plumber, I can't do it, why would I want that stress no matter how well it pays. That being said, I'm a well paid, happy IT Employee. If I was working at tim hortons or mcdonalds I might have a different opinion and might do anything to get out...



My own experience... 9 in 10 I interviewed that had certs were woefully ignorant of basic SQL Server knowledge. Funny thing was, the 1 in 10 frequently was a monster who probably knew a lot more than I did. I've just had bad experiences with Microsoft certs (that includes watching an acquaintance get 10 certs in 10 weeks using dumps).


I fondly remember a colleague coming to me one day at the bank (it was about a week after I'd handed in my resignation). He waved a certification result paper in my face and announced loudly 'See, I know SQL better than you do.'

Problem was, one night the previous week I'd been working late and, while hunting for a pile of release documents on his desk, I'd found instead a large pile of braindumps for that very exam.....




That about takes the cake.




Jason AKA CirqueDeSQLeil
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SQL RNNR

Posting Performance Based Questions - Gail Shaw
Post #1492425
Posted Saturday, September 7, 2013 11:55 AM
Old Hand

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Jim P. (9/4/2013)
patrickmcginnis59 10839 (9/4/2013)
I really want to zero in on this comment because I had a similar experience with a fellow who was similarly surprised by a similar shortcut I was using on windows, but this fellow was also so far beyond me in Unix and database administration that his simple lack of trivial knowledge of a particular keyboard was completely meaningless, even if the fellow did routinely used windows during his daily tasks.

Just wanted to offer a counterpoint on that one!

I can agree with your experience. There is a difference between OS shortcuts that some people just haven't seen yet and how they approach it. That was just one of several things that clued us in.

I'm not going say that was the sole clue, but it mostly happened in the 00's that he was claiming to be a Windows "god". But he had issues with building a basic batch file, automating reboots and much more. We had a UNIX dialer system. I knew more about it than him from prior experience. He never quite got it. We brought in an AS/400 system, he couldn't get it into the network correctly. There were other incidents.

I can agree with that, heck I wouldn't even task an MCM to do a dialup, network an AS/400, patch a c code base, run a DNS. On the other hand, I would assume that the ability to pass an MCM exam would mean that the individual can drill down into complex topics regarding a significant area of expertise, simply by the level it tests at. If that newly minted MCM had reason, I'm betting they could handle the other tasks if they had the time and resources to learn the subject matter and details needed for the tasks even though they weren't tested for it. Could they do this in a timely manner? I'm not so sure of that, probably depends on the task. Heck, it probably wouldn't be a reasonable request for some MCM's, they got databases to work on

I can also agree that if the MCSE does NOT test at a comparable skill level as the MCM (regardless of which subject matter we're testing for), we might not be able to expect the MCSE to handle areas outside of his area of expertise. But that doesn't mean that I wouldn't want the MCSE to successfully test for the skill level that its design for, and it also doesn't mean that I don't hold out hope for successful tests being developed for various skill levels.

I bet Microsoft wants it too. Interesting writeup I found seems to indicate so:

http://borntolearn.mslearn.net/btl/b/weblog/archive/2010/09/07/what-were-they-thinking.aspx

Additionally, I am keenly aware of the percentage of DBA's getting their MCM up to this point, especially compared to the other level certifications, and I gotta say, that speaks volumes to me about how critical the cert is when so few DBA's are taking up Microsoft's offer in issuing it. I'm partial to fixing the certs that have more relevency. If you are at the pinnacle of your field, do you really really need that paper that says so?

Ok, here's my post, you may resume the name calling

I was trying to use a simple example. My apologies.


I picked out the keyboard shortcut because it reminded me of a counterexample, and I apologise if you found it indicated disapproval of your post, I didn't intend as such so it was probably my mistake rather than yours.
Post #1492541
Posted Saturday, September 7, 2013 3:28 PM


SSCertifiable

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Great editorial Gail.

Grant Fritchey (9/5/2013)
I don't think anyone is saying that a good certification in this area can't be built. Just that so far, only one has been. And now it's gone with nothing in sight to replace it.

Actually there were two: MCM and MCA. Of course you couldn't attempt MCA unless you already had MCM. And both have now gone.


Tom
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