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Posted Sunday, May 19, 2013 2:35 PM
Say Hey Kid

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When the response from the poster becomes "I don't need that information just focus on the question I asked" when in reality that's what was being done, we all lose something.



Sorry, but even in a forum where each can add to the discussion with their lens of experience, there is something as a derailing contribution. Even here. There is enough breadth to discuss without going off topic ie. questioning the entire existence of the problem as legitimate to begin with.

Foundation: trust that the person posting the topic wishes to achieve a solution for *that* problem. The person does not want to examine his whole existence and the reason the ocean is blue and build a big arena and paint the ceiling red and then build a model ocean under it, just to see if that adds perspective to the problem. . . just because it is a discussion forum.
Post #1454369
Posted Sunday, May 19, 2013 3:46 PM


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KoldCoffee (5/19/2013)


When the response from the poster becomes "I don't need that information just focus on the question I asked" when in reality that's what was being done, we all lose something.



Sorry, but even in a forum where each can add to the discussion with their lens of experience, there is something as a derailing contribution. Even here. There is enough breadth to discuss without going off topic ie. questioning the entire existence of the problem as legitimate to begin with.

Foundation: trust that the person posting the topic wishes to achieve a solution for *that* problem. The person does not want to examine his whole existence and the reason the ocean is blue and build a big arena and paint the ceiling red and then build a model ocean under it, just to see if that adds perspective to the problem. . . just because it is a discussion forum.


So, let me get this straight, if a person is asking for a solution using a cursor then that is all we should provide even if there is a better set-based solution for the problem. Sorry, but I really can't agree with that.



Lynn Pettis

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Post #1454374
Posted Sunday, May 19, 2013 9:51 PM
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Ah yes Lynn, I was wanting to learn cursors back then, not defend my use of them. Cursors are bad RBAR for the most part, but they have their place, and thanks to David, I got the answer.
It's like having a bad thought. Sometimes, you just have them and you ask how to deal with them. Someone could say, you should never have bad thoughts....you must think positive....but that isn't helpful
Post #1454397
Posted Monday, May 20, 2013 6:53 AM


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KoldCoffee (5/19/2013)
Ah yes Lynn, I was wanting to learn cursors back then, not defend my use of them. Cursors are bad RBAR for the most part, but they have their place, and thanks to David, I got the answer.
It's like having a bad thought. Sometimes, you just have them and you ask how to deal with them. Someone could say, you should never have bad thoughts....you must think positive....but that isn't helpful


Sorry, but I really don't see a response from you on this part of my statement:

So, let me get this straight, if a person is asking for a solution using a cursor then that is all we should provide even if there is a better set-based solution for the problem.


Based on everything you have said my take is yes, just answer the question and don't try to help the person learn a better way of doing things. I'm I right or wrong?

Also, I have never questioned on their problem just on their approach to solving it. That is completely different and it is meant try and help the OP to look at a problem from a different perspective, not question their existence.



Lynn Pettis

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Post #1454512
Posted Monday, May 20, 2013 7:29 AM
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In that case I was trying to learn cursors, and there was no better way. I even prefaced and said something like, I don't want to be talked out of a cursor because I am aware of pros and cons...in the hopes of avoiding getting derailed.

Otherwise, I always agree with platitudes.
Post #1454530
Posted Monday, May 20, 2013 9:32 AM


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KoldCoffee (5/19/2013)
Foundation: trust that the person posting the topic wishes to achieve a solution for *that* problem. The person does not want to examine his whole existence and the reason the ocean is blue and build a big arena and paint the ceiling red and then build a model ocean under it, just to see if that adds perspective to the problem. . . just because it is a discussion forum.

I would have to say that I am starting to think the trust issue is on your side Koffee. Try this one out for a foundation: trust that a person offering their time for free is trying to help you and is not simply jerking you around because they have nothing better to do with their time. Consider all factors, including the amount of time they have been a member of the site, how many posts they have, and maybe check out their contributions to the community (articles, previous posts by clicking their name and choosing 'find members posts', blogs, Google, etc.). Maybe you could simply thank them for their effort, no matter how far beneath your intelligence you think it may have emanated from or how far away from the path you think you want to go down it might take you, and move on to respond to others that are getting you farther down your intended path. I say, it is too bad you are responding this way to a free offering of help. Here are a couple sayings for you:

Don't look a gift horse in the mouth.
Keep an open mind.



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There are no special teachers of virtue, because virtue is taught by the whole community. --Plato
Post #1454592
Posted Monday, May 20, 2013 10:21 AM


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KoldCoffee (5/20/2013)
In that case I was trying to learn cursors, and there was no better way. I even prefaced and said something like, I don't want to be talked out of a cursor because I am aware of pros and cons...in the hopes of avoiding getting derailed.

Otherwise, I always agree with platitudes.


Okay, here is my opinion about learning cursors, should be done as a last resort or in an effort to figure out what someone else has done using cursors in an effort to replace with a set-based solution.

The problem I have seen is that once someone has figured out how to use a cursor, every problem after that is solved with a cursor. And things work great when run against 10 to 100 records, but then you find people nesting cursors and running those nested cursors against tables with 1,000's to 10'000's of records and wondering why the process is extremely slow.

One of the things we try to do here on SSC is pass on our knowledge and experience in an effort to make others better at their chosen craft without necessarily having to make the same mistakes we made in learning when resources like this weren't available. I had worked with SQL Server for over 7 years before I became involved on SSC, and I learned more about doing things right in my first 5 years of active participation on SSC then in the previous 7 years before that.

I am trying hard to give back to a community that helped me learn more because it is the right thing to do, not to make me feel better or superior to others.



Lynn Pettis

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Post #1454616
Posted Tuesday, May 21, 2013 4:40 AM
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Well, i'm not going to say anymore, other than, thank you all for your time.
Post #1454916
Posted Tuesday, May 21, 2013 8:59 AM
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Careful thought before I ask the following:
Would it be ok with you not to post to my topics for about 6 months? There are so many people on the forums to help and I am not posting every day or every week, but every time I do you are on there! Even Celko does not get on me every single time about my DDL not being fully normalized and datatypes correctly defined. You know, DDL is often created to be adequate for illustrating the problem...etc. and Celko, while he *has a point* is heavy handed with it at time where it is clear the person posting is not addressing normalization.

Post #1455071
Posted Tuesday, May 21, 2013 9:11 AM


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KoldCoffee (5/21/2013)
Careful thought before I ask the following:
Would it be ok with you not to post to my topics for about 6 months? There are so many people on the forums to help and I am not posting every day or every week, but every time I do you are on there! Even Celko does not get on me every single time about my DDL not being fully normalized and datatypes correctly defined. You know, DDL is often created to be adequate for illustrating the problem...etc. and Celko, while he *has a point* is heavy handed with it at time where it is clear the person posting is not addressing normalization.



I have never gone off on anyone for posting table definitions that were not normalized or did not have PK defined, or weren't using proper data types in the manner of Mr. Celko. I may mention that dates should not be stored as integer or character values, but I also realize that you sometimes are stuck with the decisions of others. I do recommend trying to change those but again realize that may not be possible.

Depending on the problem, we may suggestion that data may need to be normalized as well, but we try to work with what is provided because that is what you have to work with.

As for not answering any of your posts for 6 months, you will probably get that wish not because I pay attention to who is posting (as I told you in a PM, I rarely look at the who when responding) but because I may simply not be able to answer as many questions as my internet connections may not be a fast and/or reliable while I am in Afghanistan. Until I leave, however, if I answer your question(s) I answer your question(s).




Lynn Pettis

For better assistance in answering your questions, click here
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