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Posted Monday, August 27, 2012 11:10 AM


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djackson 22568 (8/27/2012)
[quote]
Hmm, you do seem optimistic, and I applaud that attitude.

I have to disagree with outsourcing leading to a net increase in jobs. Caterpillar and other manufacturers shed jobs and sent them overseas. Whether there are more jobs in China doesn't matter to me, the fact that a large numbers of Americans lost their jobs does, because I believe we should take care of our own first. Also, until the US economy improves, the world economy isn't going to, and that is hurting billions across the planet. US consumers drive the world economy more than any other country.


First - it is useful to keep the distinction between outsourcing and off-shoring. Just because something is outsourced does NOT mean it left the country. Conflating the two will lead to some VERY inaccurate conclusions.

Besides - those nubers aren't always easy to compute, since those statistics are often done over short cycles. As technology and/or product lines change, some operations shut down and others spin back up. The manufacturing aspects decreased, but electronics/ design teams increased. So a company like caterpillar might move its older line off-shore while redesigning the new products. So some jobs are lost, but what isn't always counted would be what jobs replaced them

Look at companies like Dupont with very long development cycles. They continuously destroy and build up design teams to handle specific aspects. If you look only at the layoff part (which is often what happens with those statistics), they look to be a hack-and-slash organization, but they are simply moving most folks from project to project (where the projects might actually be different corporate entities).


As to your first point, it is political today. Companies used to outsource jobs overseas simply because of smaller wage costs. Today they are outsourcing jobs due to environmental regulations being pushed by extremists claiming to "save the planet". If we want to save the planet, why are we moving jobs to countries that have almost NO environmental regulations? Even if we think it is good to have these regulations, we have to admit they are political by definition. I do think we need to treat our planet better, but I recognize that when companies are forced to close factories due to government regulations, that is a political decision that forced the business decision. I am sure there are still jobs being lost to greedy business leaders, but that is no longer the only cause.


But it's always been political. What used to be regulated via tariffs and trade embargoes now falls under EPA regs, or artifical constructs like NAFTA. Same game, just different tools in the game. That's been happening since the 1700's. At any point the only real differentiator is how skilled or corrupt the person in charge might happen to be.


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Your lack of planning does not constitute an emergency on my part...unless you're my manager...or a director and above...or a really loud-spoken end-user..All right - what was my emergency again?
Post #1350496
Posted Tuesday, August 28, 2012 12:34 AM
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I beg your pardon but I categorically disagree with you that US consumers drive the world's economy, this may be applicable during 70's until 90's but not now. Most US companies now are relying into emerging markets like Latin America, Asean, China, India, etc for futher consumer growth -- as the growth in North American region and European regions were already saturated. It is saturated not because of layoffs but because it reached the peak and less headroom for consumer growth.
Going back about outsourcing, most company do outsource because it will make their bottom line more solid and be able to focus on their on the core valuable business.Just take for example Apple, US engineers are the ones designing and innovate their core products but their high-volume manufacturing are outsource to China; since China is a manufacturing powerhouse and more efficient in manufacturing not just because of a lower labor cost but manufacturing is their forte due to economy of scale.
Also, remember that US companies earn more due to outsourcing. Large US IT services outsourcing companies like HP, IBM, Accenture are themselves brings value to US because they earned more on this business.



Hmm, you do seem optimistic, and I applaud that attitude.

I have to disagree with outsourcing leading to a net increase in jobs. Caterpillar and other manufacturers shed jobs and sent them overseas. Whether there are more jobs in China doesn't matter to me, the fact that a large numbers of Americans lost their jobs does, because I believe we should take care of our own first. Also, until the US economy improves, the world economy isn't going to, and that is hurting billions across the planet. US consumers drive the world economy more than any other country.

As to your first point, it is political today. Companies used to outsource jobs overseas simply because of smaller wage costs. Today they are outsourcing jobs due to environmental regulations being pushed by extremists claiming to "save the planet". If we want to save the planet, why are we moving jobs to countries that have almost NO environmental regulations? Even if we think it is good to have these regulations, we have to admit they are political by definition. I do think we need to treat our planet better, but I recognize that when companies are forced to close factories due to government regulations, that is a political decision that forced the business decision. I am sure there are still jobs being lost to greedy business leaders, but that is no longer the only cause.

Sigh, if only I had a magic wand from one of those characters in the very popular magic books and movies, I could cast a spell to make everyone get along, everyone to have enough to eat, and everyone to work hard. Sadly human nature prevents that sort of thing from every really happening (peace and tranquility, not magic of course!)



Post #1350704
Posted Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:15 AM
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Matt Miller (#4) (8/27/2012)
djackson 22568 (8/27/2012)
[quote]
Hmm, you do seem optimistic, and I applaud that attitude.

I have to disagree with outsourcing leading to a net increase in jobs. Caterpillar and other manufacturers shed jobs and sent them overseas. Whether there are more jobs in China doesn't matter to me, the fact that a large numbers of Americans lost their jobs does, because I believe we should take care of our own first. Also, until the US economy improves, the world economy isn't going to, and that is hurting billions across the planet. US consumers drive the world economy more than any other country.


First - it is useful to keep the distinction between outsourcing and off-shoring. Just because something is outsourced does NOT mean it left the country. Conflating the two will lead to some VERY inaccurate conclusions.

Besides - those nubers aren't always easy to compute, since those statistics are often done over short cycles. As technology and/or product lines change, some operations shut down and others spin back up. The manufacturing aspects decreased, but electronics/ design teams increased. So a company like caterpillar might move its older line off-shore while redesigning the new products. So some jobs are lost, but what isn't always counted would be what jobs replaced them




But it's always been political. What used to be regulated via tariffs and trade embargoes now falls under EPA regs, or artifical constructs like NAFTA. Same game, just different tools in the game. That's been happening since the 1700's. At any point the only real differentiator is how skilled or corrupt the person in charge might happen to be.


Please forgive my attempts at editing the post. I don't think I am doing that well!

I understand the difference between outsourcing and sending jobs off short. There is a difference, although again, to the person losing their job it doesn't matter. Those of us that work as DBAs might be able to find work, but there are a lot of people in the US, and presumably across the world, who can't find work.

Not sure that I agree it has been going on since the 1700s, but I get your point. I believe there is a large difference today. 50 years ago most US companies did not outsource for cost savings nearly as much as today. They did typically do it because there were things they needed that they simply couldn't obtain any other way. If you make shoes, of course you aren't in the business of growing your own leather. Over the last few decades or so, US business did seek off shore opportunities to increase profits. While that is still true, there are other reasons today that are driven by unreasonable regulatory constraints. Do I shut the business down, or do I fire all my manufacturing staff and concentrate on sales and marketing? Regulations aren't just affecting jobs, they are causing an increase in world hunger. The UN has complained that the US is using far too much food to produce ethanol, which is leading to an increase in starvation as countries can't afford the increase in food prices.

Whatever the reasons, whether I am correct or completely off base, outsourcing jobs is more prevalent today than ever before. One could argue that the current world economic conditions are caused in part due to the changes that must occur as a new balance is found. I believe it is going to be a long time before things recover. I also believe it is going to require eliminating a huge number of inappropriate regulations that have been put in place.


Dave
Post #1351027
Posted Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:19 AM
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paulgrammer (8/28/2012)
I beg your pardon but I categorically disagree with you that US consumers drive the world's economy, this may be applicable during 70's until 90's but not now. Most US companies now are relying into emerging markets like Latin America, Asean, China, India, etc for futher consumer growth -- as the growth in North American region and European regions were already saturated. It is saturated not because of layoffs but because it reached the peak and less headroom for consumer growth.


Interesting, but while you can disagree with the messenger, that does not change the fact that economists believe it is so. The concept that the US is largely responsible for the current economic crisis is not mine. Blame has been placed on us for a few reasons. First, our consumption does drive things, as our trade deficit is the largest in the world. You can't argue with that. Second, our monetary policy is simply wrong, and is adding to the issues that we see in Europe. Most of the world is blaming the US monetary policy, so again if you disagree, it isn't with me.



Dave
Post #1351033
Posted Tuesday, August 28, 2012 9:27 AM


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American workers just can't compete with some one in India who will do their job for $5,000 a year tops and work 14 hours a day six to seven days a week. That's the bottom line. I have said this for years on this forum alone. Until that is addressed, or US companies are heavily penalized for doing it, offshoring of American jobs will continue, our economy will continue to decline, and high unemployment here will continue to rise.. I have always considered this to be a direct threat to our national economic well-being.

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Post #1351043
Posted Monday, April 29, 2013 3:47 AM
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Outsourcing jobs has been the topic of much debate. Are you, as a small business owner, being responsible by outsourcing? You are if you’re careful about who you outsource with, and here’s why. - See more at: bit.ly/17sz9zn
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