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Writing Nearly Codeless Apps: Part 1 Expand / Collapse
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Posted Thursday, October 7, 2010 1:16 PM
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gbaytler (10/7/2010)
Column in the application is defined as 'DATE', which is not available as a datatype in SQL Server 2005. It is introduced in SQL Server 2008.
The article text should be changed to indicate that SQL Server 2008 is required.


Here is a specific fix for SQL Server 2005, which is not really supported any more:

First of all start the whole procedure over with a blank database. But before you start populating the database, edit the file “DataTypes.sql”. In there you will find these two lines:

exec sp_addtype 'DTDate', 'date', 'null'
exec sp_addtype 'DRDate', 'date', 'not null'

Change the ‘date’ types to ‘datetime’. Then start populating the database from scratch according to the instructions. This should then work with SQL Server 2005.
Post #1000854
Posted Thursday, October 7, 2010 1:50 PM
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RonKyle (10/7/2010)
RAP is in the same spirit. The objective is to properly and systematically do what most programmers currently do both imporperly and inconsistently. They do these things poorly because they're being paid to create functionality, not diddle with plumbing, and so the plumbing always gets short shrift and is done as an afterthought.


Most of what you just said in your post sounds interesting, but the paragraph above just does not reflect the complete reality. Some of us have put a lot of time into our programming to ensure the plumbing is done "correctly", in the sense of efficiency. And when sometimes time doesn't permit, take the time to refactor the code at a later date. I think you would find that your ideas might have more traction if you avoided the negative statements.


Ron: I'm sorry if I seem overly negative to you. It's just that I can't see the point of people doing all this mundane stuff by hand, even if in most places (as you assert) they are doing it consistently and systematically. Maybe we come from radically different environments. If I were not profoundly annoyed by the stuff I see in most designs, I wouldn't have spent much of my free time over the last five years trying to automate the generation of appication infrastructure.
Post #1000868
Posted Thursday, October 7, 2010 1:56 PM
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even if in most places (as you assert) they are doing it consistently and systematically


I didn't assert that; I only took issue with your assertion to the contrary.

Like you, I have seen and workd with many designs that have annoyed me to death. I knew, in contrast to your assertion, that the cause was not that someone had obssesed over the design. Quite the opposite: the designers did not know what the needed to know to ask the right questions to do it right, or to turn the right answers into a design that best supported that.

Last comment from me on this topic, but I found the discussion very interesting.



Post #1000872
Posted Friday, October 8, 2010 11:27 AM


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I'm enjoying reading the comments, but I'm curious, what happens when someone comes up with a better engine (or as in our case better software)?

Do we buy into it, or ride the current wave until it is exhausted? perhaps because it's easier or cheaper? Then at the end of the ride were do you go?

Standards are a good thing. It helps with continuity and somewhat simplifies things.
if "continuous quality improvement" is part of the process then the best you can have is the "standard du jour"


-- Optimist with experience and still learning
Post #1001468
Posted Friday, October 8, 2010 3:47 PM
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Ed Salva (10/8/2010)
I'm enjoying reading the comments, but I'm curious, what happens when someone comes up with a better engine (or as in our case better software)?

Do we buy into it, or ride the current wave until it is exhausted? perhaps because it's easier or cheaper? Then at the end of the ride were do you go?

Standards are a good thing. It helps with continuity and somewhat simplifies things.
if "continuous quality improvement" is part of the process then the best you can have is the "standard du jour"


Ed: First of all, RAP doesn't leave you with something that you can't maintain without the ongoing use of RAP. At the end of the day you still have a chunk of .NET and SQL code that you can continue to maintain by hand if you wish. It's just that it's probably a much more consistent and better structured piece of code than you possibly could have had the time or the budget to write yourself. So you don't incur any substantial risk by using RAP in terms of being left high and dry with something unusable afterwards.

Secondly there is no wave to ride. There is no crowd to follow. So this is an adventure, and instead of deciding whether to go with the crowd you'll have to instead decide whether this tool and this paradigm would make your life a whole lot easier. I'm not expecting many followers. I just want a few that will allow both me and my company to demolish my competition in a real-world demonstration of what is possible when you automate things rather than redo them by hand constantly.

The "standard du jour" argument could be used to exempt one's self from using any technology. How about C#? Remember C# is the replacement for non-compatible VB.NET in many shops. And VB.NET was the replacement for non-compatible VB6. Good heavens, why use compilers at all? If we really want to avoid paradigms and tools, we could even dispense with operating systems and go back to coding machine language. But oops - your machine language constitutes a possibly misguided investment in a particular processor architecture! Where does one turn? It seems that no matter where you look, you are making an investment in one technology or another.

Even if your vendor is Microsoft, there's no assurance that the tool(s) you're using today won't be obsolete tomorrow. The choice with RAP is to have a tool that generates most of your app code automatically, complete with features you could never afford to implement by hand, or alternatively to go without and reinvent the wheel - probably meagerly due to budget & time constraints - with every new app you have to write. The choice, of course, is yours.
Post #1001637
Posted Friday, October 8, 2010 4:01 PM
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While I too had trouble with the analogy and remain a bit sceptical, I think the idea has merit and is worth exploring. I hope to keep an open mind.

I appreciate the author sharing this idea with us, sharing his code/app, and also taking the time to write such thoughtful replies to the comments. I look forward to future articles. Thanks.
Post #1001641
Posted Sunday, October 10, 2010 3:34 AM
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simon-623950 (10/6/2010)
I'm glad I don't work in an environment where I rely on someone else designing the database then someone else programming the datalayer then someone else designing the frontend. Surely in any project you would put heads together and come up with a plan before just going ahead and bodging together a database then expecting everyone else to work with it.


Actually I am working in an environment where I created a database that fits the "frame" and ideas in this article (primary keys data audit fields etc) and the app developer that is coding in vb is totally out of the purpose of the project ... I would say that at the end the data will be stored in a database and this is the root of many projects involving SQL in any of its flavors ... the SQL developer mus be really the dude with a lot of brain in there and the others must respect the datatypes and the constraints he puts otherwise the final result will be like using bags of text instead of consistent data to store your information ... But this is just an opinion
Post #1001791
Posted Saturday, October 16, 2010 12:15 AM
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Great article, and fascinating comments. I have downloaded the software, run it, and run into a problem. Where can I get help on the problem?
Post #1005661
Posted Saturday, October 16, 2010 6:52 AM
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chrisl 5993 (10/16/2010)
Great article, and fascinating comments. I have downloaded the software, run it, and run into a problem. Where can I get help on the problem?
Send an email to DaveZiffer@ProjectPro.com
Post #1005713
Posted Saturday, October 16, 2010 6:54 AM
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moisixhaf (10/10/2010)
[quote]simon-623950 (10/6/2010)
... the SQL developer mus be really the dude with a lot of brain in there and the others must respect the datatypes and the constraints he puts otherwise the final result will be like using bags of text instead of consistent data to store your information ... But this is just an opinion

It may be just an opinion, but it's a great one!
Post #1005714
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