Click here to monitor SSC
SQLServerCentral is supported by Red Gate Software Ltd.
 
Log in  ::  Register  ::  Not logged in
 
 
 
        
Home       Members    Calendar    Who's On


Add to briefcase «««12345»»

The MCM Program is dead. Long live the MCMs! Expand / Collapse
Author
Message
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 12:19 PM
SSC Rookie

SSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC Rookie

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:03 AM
Points: 25, Visits: 79
Concur, if you don't have a degree and try to job hop, you will find you're filling out a lot of applications with few interviews and fewer job offers. I was in this boat unemployed for 4 months in 2001 before I finished a software development and management degree in 2003 and had a hard time, and that was even with 3 years experience in perl, c++ and sql server at Lexmark. I eventually got in with ACS after *3* interviews because I had an in-house ACS recruiter that liked my passion and attitude he said. He basically worked till he got me in the door. So, you could argue I was in good favor with him and lucked into the deal. But, I was in school at the time and that may have helped.

After the degree, and of course more experience, I've not had trouble getting a job or job hopping, or even getting more money. You won't even realize why you're not getting the job in many cases unless you ask if they will take folks without a degree. Hard cold reality is totally right. You can even stink as a developer but if you've got that piece of paper it can help get you in the door - an even worse hard cold reality, and one of the core reasons we've got so much junk in the software world. Just because you have a degree doesn't mean you can code. It's surprising how many good truly technical job interviews I've had, but I've given some. I personally think that you need to test your applicants and let them show they're qualified and can think. And the next level is even showing that you can write good, maintainable software.
Post #1496544
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 2:14 PM


SSC Eights!

SSC Eights!SSC Eights!SSC Eights!SSC Eights!SSC Eights!SSC Eights!SSC Eights!SSC Eights!

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Today @ 10:38 AM
Points: 961, Visits: 4,970
TravisDBA (9/19/2013)
There is merit to what you say, but the hard cold reality today is most HR departments require the piece(s) of paper (college degrees, etc.) for technical positions. You don't get in the door without it. That's just the way it is. No exceptions. Particularly so in the government sector of any kind, but also in the private sector as well..


Absolutely, 100% true.
While it seems I do have the skillset for my current job, if I hadn't taken the time to get the MS SQL Certs and a Bachelors (and it apparently wouldn't have mattered what the BS was in), I wouldn't have gotten my foot in the door. Yes, it's a government job (via contract company.) They *require* the government guys to maintain current MS certs, so one of them is working on getting ready to take the SQL2012 Querying exam. If he doesn't get it, or get it in a certain timeframe? He is no longer allowed to work (and I think may lose pay) until he does get the cert. Bear in mind, currently all the SQL Servers are 2008 R2, there's no plan yet to go to SQL2012, but he's *got* to have that cert.

I think, as others have likely said in this topic, certs are an easy way for a non-techie HR person to measure someone for a position. They've got certs in what we need, therefore move them along in the interview process. The HR people skim the resumes, certs are an easy to spot, while taking the time to actually read the work experience section means you'll only go over 20 resumes instead of 50...
Post #1496581
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 3:06 PM


SSCoach

SSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoach

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Today @ 4:02 PM
Points: 15,501, Visits: 27,887
TravisDBA (9/19/2013)
There is merit to what you say, but the hard cold reality today is most HR departments require the piece(s) of paper (college degrees, etc.) for technical positions. You don't get in the door without it. That's just the way it is. No exceptions. Particularly so in the government sector of any kind, but also in the private sector as well..


Which is why I would do everything in my power to always bypass the HR department. They've got some silly checklist that you have to meet. They're not going for the best, most qualified people, but someone who meets all the ticks. Same thing with the list of knowledge requirements. You've seen them; SQL Server, PowerPoint, BizTalk, EVACS, RH40, Lithium Bromide, Sharepoint, C, C++, C#, Java, Ruby, T-SQL, Basic, Visual Basic, Tig Welding, Underwater Basketweaving, SSRS, SSIS, SSAS, SSS, SS, all required for the position.


----------------------------------------------------
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." Theodore Roosevelt
The Scary DBA
Author of: SQL Server 2012 Query Performance Tuning
SQL Server 2008 Query Performance Tuning Distilled
and
SQL Server Execution Plans

Product Evangelist for Red Gate Software
Post #1496600
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 3:13 PM
SSC Rookie

SSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC Rookie

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:03 AM
Points: 25, Visits: 79
Grant Fritchey (9/19/2013)...Which is why I would do everything in my power to always bypass the HR department.


And just how are you going to do that?
Post #1496602
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 3:16 PM


SSCoach

SSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoach

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Today @ 4:02 PM
Points: 15,501, Visits: 27,887
steve.fortner 92896 (9/19/2013)
Grant Fritchey (9/19/2013)...Which is why I would do everything in my power to always bypass the HR department.


And just how are you going to do that?


Instead of applying for jobs through companies, as much as you can (and you can't always do this) go through individuals in the company. Network to find the jobs. Smaller companies this is frequently not possible, but then, smaller companies usually don't have frightful HR departments.

But, as was pointed out, if you're going for a government job, you may have no choice. But I'll bet you even that is negotiable. Everything is.


----------------------------------------------------
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." Theodore Roosevelt
The Scary DBA
Author of: SQL Server 2012 Query Performance Tuning
SQL Server 2008 Query Performance Tuning Distilled
and
SQL Server Execution Plans

Product Evangelist for Red Gate Software
Post #1496606
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 3:30 PM
SSC Rookie

SSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC Rookie

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:03 AM
Points: 25, Visits: 79
That sounds like a hard road to plow, but like I said before, I think the whole college thing is stupid. You're right, talking to the right people, everything is negotiable, even when they appear to be set in stone. It's meant to make it so that the company gets as much out of you as they can without question, and/or to make administration easier for the masses. They may actually respect you more if you refuse to play their little games. It may even play a little into the psychological intrigue where they've stated an interest and want to get you in the door, but you play hard to get and make them want to bend even more. I think the key with job hunting is kind of like buying a car - play it cool and never ever get in a hurry or make the sales guy think you're squirming to get in that car right now. You have to stay in the driver's seat so to speak and calmly wait for them to come to you, making them kind of beg to get you. I assume the culture in the UK is similar to the US then as far as college "requirements" for most tech jobs?
Post #1496614
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 3:36 PM


SSCoach

SSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoach

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Today @ 4:02 PM
Points: 15,501, Visits: 27,887
steve.fortner 92896 (9/19/2013)
That sounds like a hard road to plow, but like I said before, I think the whole college thing is stupid. You're right, talking to the right people, everything is negotiable, even when they appear to be set in stone. It's meant to make it so that the company gets as much out of you as they can without question, and/or to make administration easier for the masses. They may actually respect you more if you refuse to play their little games. It may even play a little into the psychological intrigue where they've stated an interest and want to get you in the door, but you play hard to get and make them want to bend even more. I think the key with job hunting is kind of like buying a car - play it cool and never ever get in a hurry or make the sales guy think you're squirming to get in that car right now. You have to stay in the driver's seat so to speak and calmly wait for them to come to you, making them kind of beg to get you. I assume the culture in the UK is similar to the US then as far as college "requirements" for most tech jobs?


Not a clue. I live & work in the US. I just work for a UK company. Oh, and I got the job by asking the people in charge, not going through HR. Although, HR at Red Gate are a lovely bunch of people (and how often will you say that?).


----------------------------------------------------
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." Theodore Roosevelt
The Scary DBA
Author of: SQL Server 2012 Query Performance Tuning
SQL Server 2008 Query Performance Tuning Distilled
and
SQL Server Execution Plans

Product Evangelist for Red Gate Software
Post #1496617
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 3:47 PM
SSC Rookie

SSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC RookieSSC Rookie

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Friday, February 21, 2014 7:03 AM
Points: 25, Visits: 79
Okay, last question. Do they normally "require" degrees at Red Gate? Again, I'm absolutely not questioning the decision - I know you have skills and you're a very good and creative writer to boot. I'd hire you. : ) I'm just curious for my own insight - and it will probably help others as well.
Post #1496625
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 3:51 PM


SSCoach

SSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoachSSCoach

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Today @ 4:02 PM
Points: 15,501, Visits: 27,887
steve.fortner 92896 (9/19/2013)
Okay, last question. Do they normally "require" degrees at Red Gate? Again, I'm absolutely not questioning the decision - I know you have skills and you're a very good and creative writer to boot. I'd hire you. : ) I'm just curious for my own insight - and it will probably help others as well.


I don't know if it's a requirement. Well, it can't be. I don't have one. But, most of the people working there do. I think the majority actually graduate from there in Cambridge. It's a pretty young company. I think I'm the 3rd oldest employee.


----------------------------------------------------
"The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood..." Theodore Roosevelt
The Scary DBA
Author of: SQL Server 2012 Query Performance Tuning
SQL Server 2008 Query Performance Tuning Distilled
and
SQL Server Execution Plans

Product Evangelist for Red Gate Software
Post #1496628
Posted Thursday, September 19, 2013 3:57 PM


SSCrazy Eights

SSCrazy EightsSSCrazy EightsSSCrazy EightsSSCrazy EightsSSCrazy EightsSSCrazy EightsSSCrazy EightsSSCrazy EightsSSCrazy EightsSSCrazy Eights

Group: General Forum Members
Last Login: Today @ 4:53 PM
Points: 8,544, Visits: 9,031
steve.fortner 92896 (9/19/2013)
I assume the culture in the UK is similar to the US then as far as college "requirements" for most tech jobs?

Not quite as firmly cast in concrete as in the US, but getting steadily more like it. I think we are much more likely over here to decide we don't care what the degree was in, though; but my view may be a bit out of date, because my first real computing job was a 6 week stint at RHEL way back in 1966 (in between degrees), and most of my experience of recruiting and of being recruited is somewhat out of date. I can definitely confirm that what Grant says applies in the UK, though - if you know someone on the inside who thinks you are worth having, you are more likely to get an interview if you get introduced through them than if you go through HR, and it's usually HR that has the silly rules about certificates, not the hiring managers. In fact over the decades HR departments and recruitment consultants have in general got worse over here and more jobs are getting taken through personal contacts.


Tom
Post #1496630
« Prev Topic | Next Topic »

Add to briefcase «««12345»»

Permissions Expand / Collapse